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Senator Kerry. But nothing that really deals with the question 

 of critical stock and OSP on which the fundamental decisions have 

 to be based. 



Dr. Eagle. Only to the extent that we can use our population 

 data and other sources of data to determine distribution of marine 

 mammals, and if we can take the log books and determine where 

 fishing activities are occurring, particularly with the gear we know 

 have been problematic, then we can use some of this information 

 to see. 



Senator Kerry. But we are in the business of oversight and cre- 

 ating appropriate accountability, would you recommend to us that 

 we could rely on log books, or must we guarantee a monitoring 

 process, observers on board, to appropriately have the accountabil- 

 ity the MMPA seeks? Dr. Hofman. 



Dr. Hofman. I will comment on that, Mr. Kerry, and several oth- 

 ers. First, I think it is clear from what happened over the course 

 of the last 5 years that an observer program will be essential. The 

 observer program provides a sample, a reliable sample, of the num- 

 ber and species of animals being taken. 



As Dr. Eagle started to say, I think, that the observer program 

 by itself is not sufficient to get an accurate estimate or to make an 

 accurate estimate of the number of animals taken because we also 

 need to know the fishing effort. And we cannot get that datum 

 from the observer program. 



In some cases, I think, the most efficient way to get effort data 

 is through the kind of log book system that currently exists. And 

 I think in part, again, in terms of efficiency, that registration is the 

 most efficient way to deal with this. 



Senator Kerry. But again, even for fishing effort, even for loca- 

 tion, time at sea, time fishing, and so forth the log book is only as 

 good as the data put in it. 



Dr. Hofman. That certainly is true. 



Senator Kerry, It will never be independent. So, if somebody 

 wants to downplay the amount of fishing time or minimize the im- 

 pact on a particular area by suggesting they were in a different 

 area, there is absolutely no way to prevent them from doing that 

 if it is self-reported. 



Dr. Hofman. Well, that is certainly true. But I think it is impor- 

 tant to remember that there are at least two possible sources of 

 error. One is deliberate, as you indicated; the other is caused by 

 problems with identification of species, for example. 



If you sent me out on a fishing vessel in a lot of places I could 

 not identify many of the marine mammals — ^particularly the 

 cetaceans — that they take. To expect a fisherman to be able to ac- 

 curately identify all species is about as unreasonable as to expect 

 me to be able to do so, actually more unreasonable. So, I think 

 some of the error, and maybe a lot of the error, is just unavoidable. 

 The way to deal with it is through the observer program. 



I think that to the extent there is a problem with fishermen ac- 

 curately reporting in their logs where they are fishing and how 

 many sets they make, for example, the problem goes far beyond the 

 marine mammal problem. It goes right to the heart of effective 

 management of fisheries, because if we cannot say what the fishing 

 effort is and what is being taken in terms of pollack, for example, 



