80 



How do you deal with that compared to other kinds of stocks 

 where we do recognize nuisance? I can think of plenty of places in 

 Massachusetts where, against some people's views incidentally, we 

 have come to the conclusion that it is better to permit a taking, for 

 instance in the deer population on a number of the islands, such 

 as Crane Reservation. For the sake of the deer in essence, and for 

 the capacity to conserve we have allowed a taking. 



Where do you come out on that kind of "conservation or manage- 

 ment approach"? 



Ms. Young. At this point I can only speak on behalf of two of 

 the groups that I am representing. As Suzanne pointed out, I am 

 representing a coalition of groups some of which are, in fact, very 

 prohibitionistic in their point of view. So, I can speak on behalf of 

 two groups. 



Senator Kerry. They say none, zero. OK. 



Ms. Young. The two groups that I represent most specifically are 

 the International Wildlife Coalition and the Humane Society of the 

 United States. And as everyone sitting at this table knows, I am 

 the person that originally drafted that nuisance animal permit dur- 

 ing the negotiated process. That was me. And so I have myself, on 

 behalf of those two organizations, acknowledged the fact that there 

 are situations that exist where it may be necessary to mitigate a 

 nuisance. And we specifically initially agreed that it would be indi- 

 vidually identifiable animals. 



The history of wildlife management is very spotty, but it cer- 

 tainly indicates that you cannot make a universal decision that 

 killing large numbers of animals is necessarily going to solve a 

 problem. Coyote management is a classic example of how that does 

 not work. And, in fact, deer and predators are very different. 



When you are dealing with fast breeding ungulate populations 

 like deer, or when you are dealing with rodent populations that 

 breed very quickly, you have got a very different kind of manage- 

 ment issue than you have when you are dealing with predators, 

 which basically employ very different reproductive strategy. 



But predator management of nuisance animals has historically 

 not been very effective. And one of the things that we have main- 

 tained is that it is important to invest in engineering solutions. As 

 long as you have resource there that is attractive and available, 

 some animal will exploit it. If you kill the animal that is currently 

 exploiting it, somebody else is just going to come along. 



It is like a woodchuck in your garden. As long as your garden 

 is there and is not fenced, if you kill that woodchuck another one 

 is just going to come along because you have got a prime resource 

 in the middle of the territory. If you cannot make it unattainable 

 by fencing or some other barrier, or if you cannot make it unattrac- 

 tive in some way, through repellents or whatever, it is still going 

 to be exploited. 



And what we believe is that there has not been really sufficient 

 attention paid to looking at an entire ecosystem, as Dr. Hofman 

 said earlier. Certainly it is true that you have situations where you 

 have abundant marine mammals and you see a decline in fish 

 stocks, and certainly there is some correlation there, but it is not 

 a cause-and-effect situation. 



