45 



a bad year, the counties hardly get anything, and if they get a good 

 year, they can get it. There is no stability for the counties and no 

 ability for the counties to plan. 



Senator Craig. You and I find little agreement on all of those 

 statements, and if you wish that it be decoupled, why in the ac- 

 counting processes to determine the value of the timber sale, or the 

 cost of putting up a timber sale, do you choose not to decouple it? 



Mr. Francis. Because it is a cost to taxpayers that is reflected in 

 the timber program. The 25-percent payment 



Senator Craig. Well, why don't we just say the general revenue 

 of the Forest Service and not the timber program? 



Mr. Francis. Because this is the way the Congress coupled it. It 

 coupled it to the timber sales program; it didn't say to the general 

 revenues of the Forest Service. It said to the timber program. 



Senator Craig. But the Forest Service in its accounting has de- 

 coupled it from timber sales. 



Mr. Francis. Yes, they have decoupled it from timber sales. But 

 the 25-percent payment is based on the value of the timber sale, on 

 the gross revenues of the timber sale, and that is why we leave it 

 in there as a cost. It can come in or out. It is a wash as far as the 

 Treasury goes in some sense. 



Senator Craig. All right. Do you agree with the concept of eco- 

 system management? 



Mr. Francis. Yes. 



Senator Craig. And does The Wilderness Society generally sup- 

 port and promote that concept and the direction the Forest Service 

 is headed in that? 



Mr. Francis. We generally support the concept of ecosystem 

 management, and we support the idea of the Forest Service moving 

 toward ecosystem management. We would be very cautious — and 

 that is why my very quiet "yes" — I have been thinking through the 

 question, do I agree with the Forest Service policy statement that 

 was issued last year, and I'd say I have sufficient doubts. Ecosys- 

 tem management has yet to be clearly defined, and a substantial 

 amount of scientific inquiry will be required to make that defini- 

 tion, and then determine how best to implement it. 



Senator Craig. The reason I ask that question — and I don't have 

 a hidden reason per se — is because I mentioned in my opening com- 

 ments that I thought in an ecosystem management concept that 

 you look at the whole, and the whole does include timber sales as 

 part of a management approach, not a timber sales approach per 

 se. I think Mr. Riley referred to that. 



Therefore, my question is if the Forest Service is moving in that 

 direction, and we can all arrive at a definition that you and the 

 Society would agree on, is it possible to say that the concept of 

 below-cost timber sales might ultimately become irrelevant under 

 the concept of ecosystem management — if it becomes a holistic 

 management tool? 



Mr. Francis. I think it is difficult for me to respond to that ques- 

 tion. 



Senator Craig. Well, think about it. 



Mr. Francis. I think if we are going to go to ecosystem manage- 

 ment in this country, there should not be incentives in ecosystem 

 management that put the Forest Service in a position of wanting to 



