21 



Thank you. 



Senator Daschle. Why don't you have both of your colleagues 

 come to the table, and they can stay during the presentations to be 

 provided next. 



Mr. Lyons, let me ask you, although the congressional and public 

 debate over financial losses from the Forest Service timber sale 

 program have focused on below-cost timber sales, the Forest Serv- 

 ice has persistently approached the debate by discussing below-cost 

 forests. Do you believe that focusing on the entire sale program for 

 a national forest properly addresses the public's concerns? 



Mr. Lyons. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the proper approach is 

 to look at timber sales as opposed to below-cost forests, and I think 

 we are handicapped in part by the analysis that is provided by the 

 TSPIRS system in that it identifies below-cost forests and has to do 

 so by looking at average operating costs and program benefits over 

 a 3-year period. As Senator Craig alluded to, we have seen recent 

 dramatic increases in stumpage prices, which could change the 

 nature of the operating costs and the cost-efficiency of individual 

 forest timber sale programs. 



I think analyzing the program costs on a sale-by-sale basis is the 

 proper way to go, and we need to assess our ability to do that. And 

 it should be done in two ways. It should be done up front in prepar- 

 ing a timber sale program to have a better understanding of where 

 great cost efficiencies could be achieved, and also a greater likeli- 

 hood of understanding what investments are being made, where 

 conscious decisions are made to make investments that may in fact 

 not return money to the Treasury. 



In addition, I think we have to come up with a much more effi- 

 cient and effective monitoring system, so that at the tail end of the 

 timber sale program, we can see if we have accomplished what we 

 actually intended or what our goals were in implementing a pro- 

 gram on each national forest. 



^ Senator Daschle. Let me do this. I am looking at the clock, and 

 I've got less than 5 minutes remaining on the vote. I will put the 

 committee in recess subject to the return of Senator Craig, and he 

 will continue with questions of his own until I return. 



So with that, the committee will stand in recess. 



[Short recess.] 



Senator Craig [presiding.] I met the chairman in the hall — we 

 passed at high rates of speed — and he said, "Get back there and 

 convene the committee," so that, Jim, we can finish the questions 

 we have for you. I understand that the chairman had just asked a 

 question about the examination of sales and a concern about a sale- 

 by-sale approach. In understanding some of your comment, my con- 

 cern would be the cost and the time it would take to do that kind 

 of an analysis. We are already in a phenomenal fiber bind in the 

 West, with the spotted owl. Is that a reasonable approach toward 

 resolving some of these below-cost issues? 



Mr. Lyons. Well, as you pointed out, Senator Craig, cost and 

 time constraints are going to be important considerations in how 

 we deal with this. I do think, however, we need to have a better 

 understanding of how the costs of preparing timber sales and the 

 benefits are arrayed. 



