24 



So we are developing processes. I think that this continuing prob- 

 lem is still a little bit of history that is coming back to haunt us. 

 But certainly the Commissioners have been committed to trying to 

 turn this thing around and have worked very hard over the last 

 two years to do so and we think we are making some real progress. 



Mr. Saxton. This reminds me of the level of frustration that we 

 get when we deal with fisheries issues very often. From a problem 

 solvers point of view, it seems to me that it would be useful to de- 

 fine the problem and then to fashion a response to it. 



It seems to me that we have not defined the problem very well 

 and I am not casting the blame at anyone but we don't know why 

 bluefish have moved offshore. At least no one has said that we 

 have any sharp idea. Is it food? Is it the relationship between blue- 

 fish and striped bass? We don't know. Hadn't we ought to be about 

 finding a better definition of what the problem is which would give 

 us a better opportunity to fashion a solution to it and if that is so, 

 then shouldn't we, Frank and I, be looking for ways to give you the 

 tools that you need to do better science? 



Mr. DUNNIGAN. I will volunteer to deal with that one first. Abso- 

 lutely. There is no question about it. 



Mr. Saxton. People tell me that trawlers run up and down the 

 E.E.Z. scooping up large numbers of bait fish. It seems to me like 

 that is something that we ought to study. We ought to figure out 

 if that is right. That is anecdotal information that comes to us 

 every day almost. 



Mr. DUNNIGAN. A lot of that is captured by the scientific informa- 

 tion. Perhaps what happened in the last three months hasn't been 

 cranked into a stock assessment yet but the scientists, to give them 

 credit, have been looking at what the fishermen have been doing 

 both commercial, especially commercial but also commercial and 

 recreational, for decades. 



I think it is also fair to say that they have not had an oppor- 

 tunity mainly because it is incredibly expensive to get out and 

 gather all of the information that you have to study ecosystem and 

 ecotrophic relationships to figure out just what is it about water 

 temperatures and fish and the supply of plankton in the ocean and 

 the relationship between bluefish and shad and striped bass. 



Those are very difficult and expensive questions to try to answer 

 but I think there isn't a scientist around who wouldn't tell you that 

 those are important things that need to be studied and we need to 

 find the resources to do so. 



Mr. Saxton. Anything further? 



Mr. Pallone. The only other thing that I was going to ask was 

 I think it was Dusty who mentioned and again I am just trying to 

 understand the difference between the public process and I think 

 Dusty said that the Mid-Atlantic Council has more public members 

 and not the same number with the Commission and so there seems 

 to be a distinction at the decisionmaking level and not just the way 

 you go about having your hearings or your public input. Would you. 

 Jack, just maybe comment on that? Is it true that there aren't as 

 many public members in the Commission because of the way they 

 are set up? 



Mr. DUNNIGAN. Yes. That is certainly true. The organizations are 

 very different. We are a states organization, put together to try to 



