66 



in this State that should be developed are from New York or they 

 are hired guns from outside. 



In reality, there is room for all of us, but right now there seems 

 to be sort of a feeling there is not room for all of us, that there is 

 only room for those that are retired, if they are getting a State pay- 

 check, or those that are hired by interest groups, or those that have 

 an outside income, and, as you said, Judy, I do not know. You do 

 not fall in any of those categories, but they do not have sympathy 

 for you. The same with the other people, 450 people. What hap- 

 pened to them when you lose your customers, Ben, and, Nick, you 

 have a fuel distributing system. Did you start that yourself? 



Mr. Gefre. Yes, I started it in Thome Bay. 



The Chairman. You started it in Thome Bay, and if you lose 

 your customers, you are gone. You may not leave here because you 

 apparently have got your feet to the ground and you are going to 

 stay regardless, but what are your kids going to do? 



Mr. Gefre. Right. 



The Chairman. The question keeps coming up: What has hap- 

 pened? Why did this all occur? 



All of you have been here a long period of time. Can you just gen- 

 erally give me a rundown and say the change in the last 25 years, 

 what happened prior to that, and what do you think the reasons 

 may be in your own minds or the most — what I would say the most 

 telling things you see today versus when you first started? Just a 

 general question, so you can answer it generally. 



Ben? 



Mr. Williams. I think that when I first came up here, and I have 

 not been here quite as long as some of these people, but I have 

 been here 23 years, and when I first came up here, there was a 

 real sense between the Forest Service and the industry and every- 

 thing to consider the people and the impacts and jobs, and I think 

 people were more inclined to do a good job, and most of the deci- 

 sions were based locally. 



There is room in Southeast Alaska for the timber industry, the 

 woods products industry — really good, if we can get the prices up 

 and some economic things — the commercial fishing industry. There 

 is room for mining, there is room for tourism, sport fishing, recre- 

 ation. I think we are more capable of defining those areas and 

 working together to provide all those areas and identifying those 

 areas that are viable for all these different industries ourselves and 

 with the help of good professionals in the Federal Government or 

 the State government or wherever that make decisions based on 

 good management decisions that take into consideration people and 

 jobs, and I think the biggest thing — I agree with Judy — the biggest 

 thing is we have people making decisions that do not know what 

 they are talking about and they are making them from an extrem- 

 ist point of view. 



I think we are all environmentalists that live up here, and I 

 think we can make it work and have this land survive, but we can- 

 not do it with all the outside influences. 



The Chairman. One of the things that the TLMP — the Tongass 

 national plan that they extended the comment period on for a pe- 

 riod of time — I do not have any confidence in it at all, and eventu- 

 ally, when that is done, the decisions made will be held back in 



