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want to live anywhere else. I do not want towns. I do not want 

 pavements. 



The environmental movement has gone from a cause to a busi- 

 ness. I think it is one of the most biggest, powerful businesses in 

 this country. A cause — I have worked for school organizations. I 

 bake pies for pie sales. Nobody gives me any money. I would not 

 take it if they did. That is not the idea. 



If I were making the salary that some of these people are mak- 

 ing, I would do everything I could to get as much I could, too. The 

 problem is, once they get it, they do not have to do anything with 

 it because you do not manage wilderness areas. There is no price 

 put upon them. They are just there. You are going to have to go 

 get more. 



I get a little nervous when I wonder when they have gone 

 through the loggers and they have gone through the fishermen and 

 they have gone through the miners and they have gone through the 

 farmers, who are they going to come after next, concrete workers? 



Where does it end? There is no common sense to this anymore. 

 It is so extreme. There is no middle of the road. You cannot have 

 all of anything, and yet there is no place they can stop because 

 they are not going to put themselves out of business. 



The Chairman. You are right, Judy. Jerry Hair made $350,000 

 a year. 



Ms. Willis. My biggest year in 16 years, my little store, $21,000, 

 and I was dang proud of it. 



The Chairman. We can get into the philosophies and the direc- 

 tion of what the groups are. I think everybody knows my position 

 on that. They agree with me. They put me on the dirty dozen a 

 thousand times and also have, very frankly — I am the poster child 

 of the groups, and I say that with pride, because I believe in the 

 conservation but not the preservation. I believe in jobs, and I be- 

 lieve jobs create good environment. You put people — Nick, you say 

 there are no gangs here, no drugs here. You may be right, but you 

 start getting people under stress and poverty, you start going on 

 welfare and losing pride — just a little sideline — one of the most bal- 

 ancing factors we had in Sitka, I believe, bringing people together 

 was the pulp mill. We had people working the pulp mill with ethnic 

 backgrounds that had not had an opportunity before, came in got 

 good jobs, paying jobs, bought homes, had a nice car, and came up 

 the ladder, were able to buy groceries without food stamps. Now 

 they have lost those jobs. They lost them. Guess where they are 

 right now. They are on welfare. They are using food stamps. Al- 

 ready you are starting to see a high violence rate. You have already 

 seen the breaking up of families. You have seen kids that are run- 

 ning away from home, and I happen to agree with you, Judy. 

 Somewhere along the line there has got to be a balance where we 

 are going. This is not an environmental battle. This is about con- 

 trol, and most of those that are advocating their position have in- 

 come from that movement and they could care less, but I am very 

 concerned about people like yourselves, those people who are trying 

 to maintain a high-paying job. 



I watched the President on television today who was talking 

 about all the great high-paying jobs he created. Statistically, most 

 were minimum-wage jobs. Sometimes two or three jobs a person 



