80 



to enhance the uses and management of the resources of the 

 Tongass. 



The Chairman. Thank you, Brad. One thing. Yesterday, when 

 Gary gave his testimony, if we have no sales, you have got no 

 stumpage; is that correct? 



Mr. Powell. That is accurate. 



The Chairman. If we have no sales, we have no Forest Service 

 employees? 



Mr. Powell. You would have less Forest Service employees. We 

 have some other responsibilities other than timber sales, but you 

 would certainly have a reduced work force. 



The Chairman. The reason I am saying this, the testimony we 

 had from the Forest Service says look how much money we are put- 

 ting in — of taxpayers' money we are putting in the community, but 

 if you are not there, that does not occur. You do not have stumpage 

 fees — which goes to the schools. You do not have people buying 

 things and that type of thing. It is just not there. So that means 

 it is an additional hit upon the communities if there is no partici- 

 pation by the Forest Service. 



Mr. Powell. That is correct. 



The Chairman. How many less employees would you say, if KPC 

 was to close and there would be no pulp mill — by the way, they 

 could walk away today. The company could walk away today and 

 the company would not be hurt. What would be hurt is everybody 

 that is employed is dependent upon that mill to cut the trees. 



Now, how many employees do you think you would have less if 

 KPC were to shut down? 



Mr. Powell. This is pure speculation, but we have a couple hun- 

 dred employees in the Ketchikan area, and I would say somewhere 

 around half of those employees are associated with the timber pro- 

 gram, something in that neighborhood. 



The Chairman, So we lose half of that so-called economic base 

 right there. 



Mr. Powell. That is just an estimate. 



The Chairman. Again, this bill is not about your management. 

 This is about if it could be managed better. 



Now where did the concept — in your mind, did the conservation 

 areas come from? 



Mr. Powell. The HCAs? 



The Chairman. Yes, where did they come from? 



Mr. Powell. I am not sure how to answer you. Congressman 

 Young. I am not sure if you mean 



The Chairman. Did they originate here, or did they originate 

 someplace back in Washington, D.C.? Where did the idea come 

 from? 



Mr. Powell. The concept of HCAs or habitat conservation areas 

 I believe was actually started in the Northwest as they dealt 

 with 



The Chairman. Jack Ward Thomas. 



Mr. Powell, [continuing] the spotted owl. That same biologi- 

 cal concept is what we are using. 



The Chairman. Outside of Alaska? 



Mr. Powell. The HCA concept 



