83 



I get a little frustrated when decisions are now made by the 

 White House, by Jack Ward Thomas, who truly believes no tree 

 should be cut. I argued with him for hours and hours and he says 

 he does not, but every case he has been in, he has shut down any 

 harvesting, and it makes it very difficult to manage the trees. 



I go back, now. The health of the national forest, according to 

 every scientist I have talked to outside of the timber industry, says 

 it is very unhealthy. Now, as a forester, I think you have to agree. 



Mr. Powell. We certainly have an old forest here in Southeast 

 Alaska, other than where we have harvested, and in terms of just 

 the tree health and vigor, there is no doubt that we have a lot of 

 decline in those older stands. Some of those older stands are, of 

 course, important for wildlife and other needs, but certainly the 

 health of our trees, we have many of them that are in poor shape. 



The Chairman. And that causes other health problems, is what 

 I am trying to say. You have seen what has happened in the South- 

 west. We have lost a million-six this year, a million-seven, 2.7 mil- 

 lion acres in fires this year, and we lost 18 billion board feet last 

 year. The estimates, now, we are going to lose the eastern side of 

 the Sierras. It becomes a desert because of lack of management. 



Somewhere along the line this whole philosophy about how the 

 forest should be protected has to include the word management. As 

 a forester, I hope you agree with that, because there is no manage- 

 ment in preservation. There is no management in wilderness. That 

 is an absolute misnomer. A wilderness is never managed, not even 

 for fish. For the fishermen, I want you to keep that in mind. There 

 is no management for fish. 



Mr. Powell. I only agree with you that we believe the forest 

 should be managed. 



The Chairman. That is what we are seeking. As I said, this hear- 

 ing would never be necessary if we had management on the local 

 level instead of from Al Gore and his moonbeams, and that is our 

 big problem right now. I know where it is coming from. I aim that 

 right at him, direct access. I have known him when he was in the 

 House, but my goal is for you to do what you said in your state- 

 ment, and I told Gary this and Mr. Janik. 



I will defend you if you make a decision and stay by it. That is 

 a broad scope. It is when you got short-changed — the decision on 

 that extension of the contract, there were three proposals made. 

 Mr. Gore took the last one, canceled the extension of the contract. 

 He had other alternatives. KPC — he had other alternatives, five- 

 year, ten-year, 15-year alternatives, with all the stipulations, and 

 I heard talk about the corporate dream and everything else. 



And I want to tell you something else. That mill could shut down 

 and Mr. Soon could walk away and you will not have a pulp mill 

 in Southeast Alaska, and if you do not have a pulp mill, you will 

 not have any other sales because you cannot offer a sale unless we 

 go back to high-grading. 



Mr. Powell. It is my opinion as a manager and a forester that 

 we need a mill, some way, to utilize that low-value wood. Whether 

 it is a pulp mill or some other type of a mill, that is what the mar- 

 ket will decide. 



The Chairman. Here is my problem. If you have another mill, it 

 has to meet all the environmental qualities. No one is going to in- 



