45 



Dr. Chapman. It is a very difficult problem, but there are scientific 

 ways of approaching it, 



Mr. Oberstar. Do you think you are getting a handle on it? 



Dr. Chapman. Yes, sir. considerable progress has been made. 



Mr. Oberstar. It just leaves this committee in a situation of legis- 

 lating almost in a vacuum on inaccurate figures based on statements 

 made by assumption on very unscientific, questionable population 

 figures. 



Mr. Eisenbud. Mr. Oberstar, if I might offer a comment from my 

 perspective, that is probably always, from what I can gather, the case 

 with estimating wildlife populations. There are, however, standard 

 estimating techniques that are being used, and have been used, and, 

 I take it, are being improved upon. 



I would like to refer you to the paper that was presented on behalf 

 of the Commission to the Bergen Conference. I think we sent you a 

 copy, but we will be happy to provide another copy to you. That 

 paper outlines some of the approaches that the Commission thinks 

 can be used for the purpose of reviewing OSP, and those approaches 

 are, in turn, being refined again under some further contract efforts 

 that we have undertaken, and also in the course of the administrative 

 hearings. 



Mr. Oberstar. I would like to have this paper. I do not recall re- 

 ceiving it. 



Mr. Eisenbud. I will make sure you will get one, sir. 



Mr. Oberstar. In our hearings last year we encouraged the Com- 

 mission to improve and intensify its efforts in doing population 

 counts, so we would have a better data base on which to work for 

 legislative process. 



I have no further questions. 



Mr. Leggett. Mr. Mannina ? 



Mr. Mannina. Dr. Chapman, do you believe it would be possible 

 and useful to expand and upgrade the training for skippers and crew- 

 members in the U.S. tuna fleet ? 



Dr. Chapman. Yes ; T think it would be possible and useful. That is 

 one of the proposals that have been made with respect to the dedi- 

 cated vessel. 



Mr. Maxxixa. Do you also believe it would be constructive to ex- 

 pand the use of the super apron ? 



Dr. Chapman. Yes ; I think it would be. 



Mr. Maxxixa. Finally. I believe, on page 76 of the administrative 

 law judge decision, it was found that the eastern spinner was not 

 depleted. 



Could you comment on that ? 



Dr. Chapman. The Marine Mammal Commission did submit an 

 exception to that finding. 



Mr. Maxxixa. Could you submit your comments for the record ? 



Mr. Eisenbud. We will be happy to provide copies of the exception, 

 Mr. Mannina. 



Mr. Leggett. Mr. Spensley ? 



Mr. Spensley. Just one question. 



You mentioned you made a recommendation to the National 

 Marine Fisheries Service. When did you make that recommendation 

 to them ? 



