142 



It would be out position, since there docs not seem to be any waj 

 to get techniques that do not harass and kill if yon use the nets, that 

 we should go back to the methods before 1958. 1 think the ehairmai 

 was exactly eorred when ho said that basically seems to be my posi 

 tion. 



Mr. Spensi by. 1 do find il ironic that on the one hand ethical fa 

 us to kill porpoise so long as we utilize thorn For food, even if w< 

 had other sources of foods. 



"Rut on the other hand, unethical to kill thorn in the process o» 

 catching fish despite the benefit derived therefrom. 



Mr. Leggett. Well, that goes back to the hunter, that you do noi 

 shoot anything that you do not eat. 



I think that there is certain amounts of natural justice in thai 

 kind of concept. So T think that we have asked these witnesses 

 enough questions today? 



Mr. Hodges 8 



Mr. Honors. Yes. Would it be proper to bring up one matter ol 

 clarification? 



There have been some numbers that have been mentioned toda] 

 about a plateau of 125,000 that have— — 



Mr. Leggett. Could you use the microphone there? Tt might be 

 helpful. 



Mr. Hodges. With respect to the — T do not have the exact testi- 

 mony before me, but it is my understanding that there are certain 

 statements concerning the plateau of around 125.000 or 130.000 that 

 have been killed. I am not quite sure how this was calculated. 



Mr. Butler. Mr. Hodges knows perfectly well how they have been 

 calculated. 



Thev were calculated starting when this act. first became applica- 

 ble to'the tuna industry: in 1074, 00.000 killed: 1075. 135.000: 1070. 

 101.000 for 10 months, for an annual rate of 130.000. 



Mr. Hodges. That is what T wanted to address, because what Mr. 

 Butler has done is to take the 104.000 which was — in other words, if 

 that quota had been met, it would have been met in 1 month. There 

 were 104.000 killed in 1076. Whether or not it. was met in January, 

 February. March, April. May. June, July, August, September, or 

 October." T do not think it is correct to inflate the 1070 numbers up 

 to 125. 130 and into something greater than they wore. 



Mr. Leggett. I understand what he was doing. He was talking 

 about whether or not we were getting any better, and of course the 

 answer to the question of whether or not wo are getting any bettor, 

 according to gross numbers, is that you do not measure it by gross 

 numbers of porpoise, you measure it by gross tons of tuna caught. _ 



That does not really make much never-no-mind with the porpoise 

 that happens to be slaughtered. 



Mr. Hodges. That is the point I am making. The point that T was 

 making was that — precisely that, but that the number was 104 with 

 respect to 1970, and, in addition, the act did apply to the tuna in- 

 dustry in 1972 and 1073. There was no permit that was required 

 during those 2 years. 



The act applied in tha there were subregulations and supposed 

 to bo regulations in those 2 years. 



