160 



is the big ones who are catching these huge numbers, Mr. Chairman, 

 that have to have the most enforcement. 



On the transfer of vessels, I am delighted to hear you say, Mr. 

 Chairman, that they are just not going to be able to transfer — and 

 I am sure the banks and insurance companies would like to back you 

 up on that. According to the judge — 



There exists on about 104 seiners mortgages, liens, and other encumbrances 

 of nearly $206 million * * * held by banks and insurance companies. Such 

 indebtedness would place a major obstacle to transfering the vessels to foreign 

 flags. 



And he has a recommendation. 

 He states: 



The regulations should seek a certified list of U. S. citizens crewing foreign 

 seiners. 



In other words, that should be in the regulations so that penalties 

 of the act can be carried out even if the captain or the crew have 

 gone foreign. 



Thank you very much. 



Mr. Leggett. Thank you very much, Mrs. Stevens. You abstracted 

 the administrative law judge's decision, and that is very helpful to 

 the committee. 



You have not, I understand, read the entire decision but just parts 

 of it. 



It is interesting if you divide 5 million porpoises by 17 years — 

 allegedly that they were taken — you get 305,000 porpoises per year 

 during that period. 



I am not satisfied with the 100,000 goal. And it may well be that 

 if f he limitation stands as recommended by the administrative law 

 juage, that it is going to be the environmentalists that are going to 

 be back before the Committee to seek an amendment of the law to 

 change the definition of "optimum sustainable population." 



So this cuts both ways. 



And we are in a situation now where we are awaiting a decision 

 by the Executive agency on the regulations ; and we are also awaiting 

 a further decision by the courts on interim regulations. We are con- 

 templating action by the committee as to what is required. And I 

 think the oversight hearing has served its function. I think we have 

 brought a large number of people together to make our record and the 

 record of the subcommittee is being made. 



So if no further questions, the meeting will stand adjourned until 

 further call of the Chair. 



[Whereupon, at 6 :15 p.m., the hearing in the above-entitled matter 

 was recessed, to reconvene subject to the call of the Chair.] 



