177 



Dr. White. It is a difference that needs explanation. 



Mr. McCloskey. It is a difference that needs explanation. That is 

 about as diplomatic an answer as you can give. I have done some 

 fishing and fishermen are notorious liars. 



What I would like to know is how the Department of Commerce 

 develops statistics for porpoise kill? Do you use a multiple of six 

 times the report of your observers? 



Dr. White. Only the observer data is used. 



Mr. McCloskey. Then, if the same number of kills occurred on 

 unobserved boats, there are six times as many porpoise kill. 



Dr. White. No, no. Our assumption is based on the sampling from 

 our observers, so we do not use the estimates of nonobserver vessels. 



Mr. McCloskey. Then your statistics are based on the assumption 

 that your nonobserved skippers are underreporting by 5/6? 



Dr. White. They are different, yes. 



Mr. McCloskey. The only way we will know the exact porpoise 

 kill is to have an observer on each boat. 



Dr. White. The only 100 percent, fool-proof method of making 

 sure is by having an observer on every boat. 



Mr. McCloskey. If we are going to put an observer on every boat, 

 why does Senator Hyakawa — why should the U.S. Government have 

 to bear this expense ? Why should'nt the consumers of tuna bear the 

 cost of protecting porpoise? 



Dr. White. If I recall the language, it is permissive and does 

 allow us to charge the industry the cost. 



Mr. McCloskey. But in your proposed regulations, you do not 

 require the industry to bear the cost? 



Dr. White. Under the present regulations, we do not. 



Mr. McCloskey. Why not? We are properly criticized in the 

 Congress for giving you an immense responsibility but without ap- 

 propriating the money to carry it out. If you are going to protect the 

 porpoise the fishermen, as part of the cost of doing business, ought 

 to pay every cost and one to keep him honest, is an observer on every 

 boat if I understand your testimony right. 



Dr. White. The reasons why that language was in S. 373 is that 

 we do not presently have authority to do what you suggest. 



Mr. McCloskey." Do you see any problem in us mending the stat- 

 ute to require as a condition of any permit that the cost of the 

 observer be born by the industry? 



Dr. White. I think that this is a question that would have to be 

 looked into very carefully. That is why we drafted it in the Haya- 

 kawa bill as permissive language. There are some things that are the 

 responsibility of the taxpa} T er. 



Mr. McCloskey. You know the appropriation here. I do not think, 

 with the Carter budget, that there is any prayer that we can authorize 

 the cost of an observer on every boat. 



Dr. White. Well, President Carter has approved a 1977 fiscal 

 year supplemental budget request of $1.1 million to increase the num- 

 ber of observers to 43 percent coverages. 



Mr. McCloskey. But you say it will not protect the other 60 

 percent? 



Dr. White. No, it is not as good as 100 percent, but it is certainly 

 a great deal better than 10 percent. 



