178 



Mr. McCloskey. Considering the total number of cans of tuna 

 packaged in the United States, how would it effect the cost if we 

 had an observer on every boat? 



Dr. White. I do not have that number. 



Mr. Leggett. We will stipulate it is practically nothing. 



Mr. McCloskey. "Why should the United States taxpayer bear the 

 cost of protecting the porpoise? In this bill, you agree on the near 

 zero goal. I was surprised at that. 



I thought the Department of Commerce might believe that near 

 zero mortality and serious injury was not possible. But you have 

 accepted that precept in the bill Senator Hayakawa has proposed. 



Why should the Government bear one dime of the cost of a near 

 zero mortality goal? 



Dr. White. I come back to the point that I think there is a na- 

 tional interest involving the industry and individual consumer. If 

 we are definitely concerned about reducing porpoise mortality and 

 this is a national position in Federal law, and if the people of the 

 United States feel we ought to do this, then there is some national 

 responsibility. 



Mr. McCloskey. It has been the purpose of the United States as 

 declared by an Act of Congress since 1972 and in your amendment 

 offered in 1977, you accept a near zero mortality. 



Dr. White. That is correct. 



Mr. McCloskey. If that is the national purpose, why should it be 

 borne by the Government of the United States? 



Dr. White. I can give you the only reason I have given. There 

 are values involving porpoise populations that go beyond the re- 

 sponsibilities of individuals who either catch the tuna or eat it. 



Mr. McCloskey. I quite agree. My question is, why should the 

 Government of the United States bear the cost of an observer on a 

 tuna boat ? Why should not that be borne by the industry, and ulti- 

 mately, passed on to the consumer of the tuna? 



Mr. Leggett. There is another question. Whose employee is the 

 observer? If he is an employee of the Federal Government, then 

 we have not got only the cost of the wages, but we also have Federal 

 employers liability and miscellaneous other kinds of Federal bene- 

 fits. 



Mr. McCloskey. Fishermen without observers are reporting 1/6 

 of the porpoise kill that is reported by boat observers. If NOAA's 

 testimony is based on the fact that 5/6 of all tuna fishermen are liars 

 excepting those with an observer on board, they are imposing a cer- 

 tain obligation on government to keep them honest. Is that correct 

 Dr. White? 



Dr. White. I am really not going to comment on whether the fish- 

 ing captains are liars. 



Mr. McCloskey. You are basing your official statistics on the basis 

 that they are not telling the truth when they report the porpoise kill ? 



Dr. White. I am basing it on the best scientific information I can 

 get and they are individuals trained by us who observe. 



Mr. McCloskey. The best scientific evidence you can get is that 

 you are not going to get the truth from a tuna skippers. Is not that 

 an unalterable conclusion for you, even as a diplomatic witness? 



