188 



With referenee to the 6,6'00 for each stock of porpoise, an estimate 

 was made as to how many of a stock of porpoise could be taken and 

 still be virtually certain that that stock of porpoise would increase. 



In the case of the eastern spinner, that is what the number turned 

 out to bo. and all the scientists involved agreed to that number. But 

 that is not related directly to whether the Eastern Spinner is or is 

 not. above or below the lower limits of optimum sustainable popula- 

 tion. 



Mr. Anderson. I think this is where you are losing me. If every- 

 one agrees you could take 6,600 and still have an increasing popula- 

 tion, then what is it we are talking about? 



Dr. White. Well, this is one of the suggestions that we have 

 made, for example, for amending the act. The act requires upoii 

 the declaration of depletion, all taking cease. There must be a z»ro 

 take. And since we have declared the eastern spinner to be depleted, 

 then there is a zero take. 



One of the concepts we can deal with is whether, indeed, you can 

 have some take even if a stock of porpoises is depleted. 



In my view, it is a perfectly sound thing to do, even if a stock is 

 depleted, to allow some take as long as that take would insure the 

 continued increase of that stock. 



In the case of the eastern spinner, all agree that a take of 6,600 

 would not adversely affect the stock. 



Mr. Anderson. Yet if you allow them 5 percent, because I think 

 you are using 5 percent, he said the reason mixed schools are pro- 

 tected is that the eastern spinner porpoise which constitute a small 

 fraction of the mixed school, in the order of 5 percent — if you took 

 5 percent of the roughly 60,000 that yon are going to allow* to take, 

 that would be roughly 3,000. If you follow the same proportion, it 

 would be half or less than half of the number that could be taken 

 and still have an optimum sustainable population. 



Dr. White. The law requires that there be no take of a depleted 

 species. I have indicated here this morning, of course, that in an 

 accidental take where w 7 ith good intentions a tuna fishing captain 

 sets on a school in the full belief there were no spinners in it, and 

 he did find a spinner in it, we would not enforce against that since 

 it was accidental and not intended. 



There will be a number of animals taken that way. We would be-» 

 come deeply concerned if the number of animals, that is, accidentally, 

 were to exceed 6,600, because, in that case, we would have a situa- 

 tion in which we would not be virtually certain that the stock would 

 increase. 



Mr. Anderson. Getting back to the numbers, I understand your 

 department, with the observers, estimated that the total kill for 1976 

 was 104,000. That was based, I guess, on the first half of the season, 

 and you estimated the second half would be 104,000, and that 5 per- 

 cent of these were the eastern spinners. 



Again, that would bring you down to roughly 5,000, even knowing 

 that the second half would probably be less, because these would be 

 more of the white bellied spinner. 



Dr. White. Our estimate of the eastern spinner take in 1976 was 

 7800. 



