230 



Thank you. 



Mr. Leggett. Very good. 



Now, if you will agree that the Elisabeth C.J. experience in tak- 

 ing porpoises was not exactly representative — although a model — 

 perhaps it is also possible that the 50-pereent taking on mixed eastern 

 spinners was not also the average. 



Mr. Felando. I think 



Mr. Leggett. So then we get back to the fact 



Mr. Felando. I talked to Captain Joe, and I think he told me in 

 one trip it was 80 percent or 00 percent or, then again, 60 percent. 

 It depends on where you operate. 



Mr. Leggett. Well, we have still got to get back to averages, and 

 I think that if we are talking about averages, the evidence that both 

 Frank and Dr. Fox are operating under are both the same. And 

 that evidence — irrefutable at this point in our record — is that 10 

 percent of the yellowfin, and the skipjack is taken off of mixed 

 schools. 



Mr. Feeando. Well, I will tell you what. The figures we have are 

 that 54 percent of the catch was taken on mixed schools, and 28 per- 

 cent on eastern spinners. I think this is an average figure from the 

 period of 1972 to 1975. 



Frank, do you have those graphs? Can I see those graphs? 



No, excuse me, Mr. Chairman; from 1974 to 1976, our information 

 is that 54 percent of the schools involved spotters and spinners; 16 

 percent involved spotters and eastern spinners; 15.9 percent involved 

 spotters and white bellies; and 15.75 percent were unidentified. That 

 is on the inside. That is inside the CYRA. 



With respect to the outside, you will find that the percentage is 

 67.5 percent as to mixed schools, spinners and spotters. And that is 

 when you get down to a lower figure and to the spotters, and spin- 

 ners, Mr. Chairman, of slightly better than 8 percent and 39.6 per- 

 cent with respect to spotters and whitebellies. 



So we can argue percentages all we want here and get an average 

 figure, but the fact is when you get the fishermen and the fishermen 

 are on the stand, under oath — and subject to cross-examination in 

 San Diego, not only by counsel but by the administrative law judge 

 himself — and they said they had to have the opportunity to fish on 

 spotters and eastern spinner spotters, and whitebelly spinners. 



Mr. Leggett. That is the conclusion. What we need are the facts 

 to support that. 



Mr. Alverson. Could I elucidate a little about the facts for you, 

 Congressman? Each year approximately, more or less, 60 percent 

 of our catch is taken on mixed sets. 



Now, when you take a look at the mortality breakout, approxi- 

 mately 32 percent or 33 percent of the mortality every year is 

 "spinners"; the mix of eastern and whitebelly spinner mortality 

 within that 32, Mr. Chairman, varies from year to year. 



Given the current regulations, no setting on eastern spinners, the 

 fleet is going to make its mixed sets on whitebelly spinners and 

 spotters. They are going to have to move out of the area where the 

 eastern spinner dominates. And given that fact, if we can have a kill 

 rate of only a half a ton per porpoise, we are going to reach the 



