37 



Zions and the Bryce Canyonlands and all those areas where you 

 got inholdings. If there is a way to get them out, I want to do it. 

 So I don't mean to pontificate here, and I apologize, and I see my 

 time is up. But I just hope we get the right perspective on which 

 way we want this thing to go. 



Mr. Vento. Would the gentleman yield to me just briefly? 



Mr. Hansen. I don't know if I dare, but I will. 



Mr. Vento. I would just say on the inholdings, it is the issue of 

 whether we develop new inholdings. I think that it is not the inten- 

 tion to develop new inholdings because there has been a pattern of 

 service and problems that are associated with them. Maybe they 

 are reasonable and that we ought to have reasonable problems in 

 the Forest Service, but the question of adding to that I think needs 

 to be looked at in that vein. 



Mr. Hansen. I appreciate the gentleman's comment, but let me 

 just say I think it has to be done on a retail basis. As they come 

 up, you look at one, and you say, "Maybe for some reason, it has 

 changed. We have to look at this one; maybe not." But I think that 

 can be done on a retail basis rather than a wholesale basis. 



I agree with you. In the overall concept I agree, but I don't think 

 you should make a black and white response to it. Anyway, thank 

 you to the panel. We appreciate your comments. We appreciate 

 your patience. We appreciate the patience of the people who have 

 been here. 



We will now call the next panel. Mr. Thomas A. Schatz, Presi- 

 dent of the Council for Citizens Against Government Waste; Mr. 

 William Chandler, Director of Conservation Policy, National Parks 

 and Conservation Association; Mr. Curtis Cornelssen; Mr. Kenneth 

 Wilson; Mr. Aubrey C. King; and Mr. David Senior will be our next 

 panel. 



Gentlemen, we have got two more panels behind this panel, and 

 as you can see, the committee has a way of falling off. We expect 

 a few more of them to come back. There are a number of hearings 

 going on. There are a lot of things going on the floor. 



So if it is OK and if no one has a strong objection, I am going 

 to limit you to five minutes. Is that all right? Does anyone strongly 

 object to that? OK. You see in front of you three lights. The green 

 light means go, the yellow light means wrap it up, and the red 

 light means we cut you off. OK? Mr. Schatz, we will start with you. 

 The floor is yours. 



STATEMENT OF THOMAS A. SCHATZ, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL 

 FOR CITIZENS AGAINST GOVERNMENT WASTE 



Mr. Schatz. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am here on 

 behalf of the 600,000 members of the Council for Citizens Against 

 Government Waste. Concessions reform was a Grace Commission 

 recommendation. The Grace Commission was, of course, the prede- 

 cessor to CCAGW back in 1984. 



I am pleased to testify regarding H.R. 773 and H.R. 2028, both 

 of which would correct many of the fiscal and managerial problems 

 under the present concession system. We endorsed Representative 

 Meyers' bill last year. The bill passed by a vote of 386 to 30, and 

 the Senate counterpart was approved 90 to 9. And this year, of 



