27 



absence of free play of competition. That means that some conces- 

 sioners can do a better job for the public. 



We are not just talking about dollars here. Some of them can just 

 do a better job, and they won't do that if there is nobody out there 

 on their heels. That is all. I think there are splendid concessioners. 

 There are people who do much more than they need to under their 

 contracts. 



The very last thing we want to establish in this record is that 

 the concessioners aren't good partners. Far from their being exces- 

 sive, a lot of them are better than good partners. They do a lot 

 more than they need to under their contracts. It is just that we 

 want competition here. 



Mr. Duncan. Is it fair to say to the panel as a whole that all of 

 you feel that we should make some changes in the present policy? 

 Is that fair? 



Mr. Kennedy. Certainly for us. You bet. 



Mr. Duncan. Mr. Unger, let me ask you this. I notice in your tes- 

 timony that you are very much opposed to this idea or concept of 

 giving up control over these ski areas, and I am told that that 

 amounts to a little less than one-tenth of one percent of the land 

 that the Forest Service has. I understand also that the Forest Serv- 

 ice now controls or has about 190 million acres. Is that correct? 



Mr. Unger. That is correct, sir. 



Mr. Duncan. In 1984, the Grace Commission made a very strong 

 recommendation that one of the best ways to do something about 

 our horrendous national debt would be to sell off some of the public 

 lands, I think lands that were owned by the BLM and other agen- 

 cies. 



And yet it seems that almost every Federal agency is in some 

 sort of competition with other agencies, and all of them want to 

 grow and become the biggest. And they are in this ever-increasing 

 battle to expand, and yet our land mass is not growing. Is there 

 even one acre of the 190 million that you have now that you could 

 identify that you would be willing to sell to the private sector? 



Mr. Unger. I don't know 



Mr. Duncan. Well, first of all, I assume that you do believe in 

 private property? 



Mr. Unger. We certainly do. 



Mr. Duncan. Now, is there any land anyplace that you would be 

 willing to part with? 



Mr. Unger. We have in every one of our forest plans a process 

 where we try to identify whether there are indeed lands that need 

 to be exchanged, need to be acquired, or need to be disposed of in 

 accordance with the authorities that we have. We are not inter- 

 ested in adding large quantities of land to the national forest sys- 

 tem. 



Our chief has made it clear, however, that we believe in private 

 property rights. We intend to do everything we can to operate in 

 consonance with those rights in our programs, but we also believe 

 that the public lands of the Nation that have been set aside by this 

 Congress are an important treasure for all the people, and that we 

 would resist any large effort to privatize those lands. 



Mr. Duncan. How about a small effort? I assume you would re- 

 sist that too. Thank you very much. 



