64 



dent. Are you aware of any proclamation that has been voided or 

 rescinded? 



Mr. Wolf. I didn't make that statement, sir. 



Mr. CONDIT. How did I get this information that you did? Mr. 

 McCloskey, did you make that statement? 



Mr. McCloskey. Yes, Mr. Chairman. There have been certain 

 national monuments set aside by Presidential proclamation that 

 have later been withdrawn and rescinded. 



Mr. CONDIT. Mr. Wolf, do you know what the cost estimate is for 

 H.R. 2153? 



Mr. Wolf. I don't think you can make an accurate cost estimate, 

 because a lot depends on what you are going to do under it. But 

 I would suspect that the total cost would not be greater than is 

 now being expended on the forest. It would be a shifting of money 

 from one sort of activity to another. I don't think it would cost you 

 any more. 



Mr. CONDIT. Well, the CBO declares that it would be a direct 

 spending of $2 million in 1994, $17 million between 1994 and 1998, 

 requiring offsets, subject to appropriation, and it would be a 1994 

 appropriation of $17 million. Is that accurate? 



Mr. Wolf. I have just seen the CBO report. I haven't had a 

 chance to study it carefully. But my view is, the way we do our 

 bookkeeping in the Federal Grovemment, and I speak as an ex-Fed- 

 eral employee, defies common sense, in many cases. So lots of 

 things that are tallied up as costs aren't costs in the real world. 

 And some that we omit are real costs. 



Mr. CONDIT. Mr. Pombo, do you have any additional questions for 

 this panel? 



Mr. Pombo. No. 



Mr. CONDIT. Thank you very much. 



We have a change in the program. We are going to take panel 

 5 next. Mr. Dooley would like to be here for panel 4, and so we beg 

 your indulgence, and we will get back to panel 4. 



So we will take panel 5, and I hope they are here. Dr. Rundel 

 and Dr. Kondolf? 



Mr. CONDIT. Dr. Kondolf. 



Mr. Kondolf. Also, Don Gasser, I hope. 



Mr. CONDIT. Yes, Mr. Gasser. 



Dr. Rundel is from the department of biology and laboratory of 

 biomedical and environmental science, from the University of Cali- 

 fornia-Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California. We are delighted to 

 have you here, sir. We will begin with you. 



STATEMENT OF PHILIP W. RUNDEL, DEPARTMENT OF BIOL- 

 OGY AND LABORATORY OF BIOMEDICAL AND ENVIRON- 

 MENTAL SCIENCES, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-LOS ANGE- 

 LES 



Mr. Rundel. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 



I am a plant ecologist. I have worked with the University of Cali- 

 fornia in my career, and I have worked with scientific studies of 

 giant sequoias for the last three decades. 



So I speak here as a proponent of the importance, in a general 

 sense, of an ecosystem approach to management of these areas. 



