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volved gives more flexibility for management, gives more opportu- 

 nities to incorporate new information than the present system, 

 which has obvious failings to it. 



Mr. KONDOLF. I also think there is a lot that could be gained 

 from having a scientific panel, and I hope that panel will rec- 

 ommend that the watershed issues are addressed and through re- 

 producible scientific measurement, instead of what is essentially a 

 voodoo approach that has been undertaken up to now. 



Mr. Brown. Well, to the degree that the bill is prescriptive, it 

 does specify that the Scientific Advisory Committee have the exper- 

 tise that you are describing. 



Mr. Dooley. 



Mr. Dooley. Yes, I would just touch on this again. And you all 

 are, I think, very accomplished experts in the general field we are 

 talking about. Ajid I would come back to one of the prescriptions, 

 again, which is elimination of all logging. 



And I would be interested in all of your comments on this. There 

 is a science there that says that appropriate management of the 

 forests utilizing some for timber harvests is mutually exclusive to 

 the preservation of the sequoia redwood trees. I mean, are those 

 scientifically incompatible, and is there the science available now 

 that can justify the passage of legislation that says we can have no 

 harvest in these 442,000 acres? Dr. Rundel. 



Mr. Rundel. I think part of the concern with the logging is the 

 methods that have gone on. I think selective logging, for manage- 

 ment purposes — ^you've already heard there is an agreement now of 

 no trees over 30 centimeters to be cut in the future, in any case. 



Mr. Brown. Inches, wasn't it? 



Mr. Rundel. Yes, inches. I'm sorry, inches, yes. 



Small amounts of management effects in the groves are not going 

 to hurt them. If we start doing major manipulations, with old-style 

 mechanical manipulation, that is going to cause major road- 

 building, and that kind of associated environmental damage, I 

 think that is where the concern lies. It's not with selective logging 

 of individual trees by horse or by other less intensive activities. 



Mr. Kondolf. Hydrologically, one of the biggest problems is the 

 road network. That is the single biggest problem in producing in- 

 creased run-off and sedimentation. And the road network is there 

 for logging. I mean, it's also used for recreation, but it was put in 

 for logging. You know, the vast majority of the roads are main- 

 tained for that purpose. 



So if we are to manage the area more for recreational and other 

 values, there can probably be far fewer roads and some of the exist- 

 ing roads could be taken out and repaired. 



Mr. Dooley. Again, the question being, is there the science out 

 there? I mean, if we are trying to predicate our legislation basically 

 on science, is the science there to say that we have to eliminate all 

 harvesting of lumber on the Sequoia National Forest in order to 

 preserve the sequoia redwood trees in their groves? 



Mr. Kondolf. I'll pass that question on to the redwood special- 

 ists. 



Mr. Dooley. Mr. Christenson. 



Mr. Christenson. Again, I can't talk about the redwoods, specifi- 

 cally. But as some of my associates, biologists, say, if you want to 



