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We just say, we have to have a plan, based upon the best sci- 

 entific recommendations that we have. And, of course, we know 

 that indiscriminate and large-scale logging, whether of the sequoias 

 or not, is likely to damage the sequoias, just by burying the root 

 systems, and from other things of that sort. 



The other question I have has to do with the problem of windfall. 

 Does the existence of multilayered canopy serve to ameliorate the 

 problem of windfall, to some degree, protecting the sequoia against 

 it, so that there are values to having it there? 



Or, on the converse, would isolated sequoias be more threatened 

 by removing all the trees around them and leaving them more open 

 to the problems of heavy storm winds, or something of that sort? 

 And we noticed a number of those situations up there in the se- 

 quoias. 



Mr. RUNDEL. I think it is noncontroversial. It is a matter of phys- 

 ics that an isolated tree is subject to much more wind pressure 

 than a 



Mr. Brown. I didn't think it was controversial. 



Mr. RuNDEL. But I think probably, under natural circumstances, 

 and it can be accelerated by human activity. The major threat to 

 large giant sequoias is erosion, because many sequoias grow 

 along 



Mr. Brown. If you log all around them, and expose the roots, 

 take away the wind protection, I would suggest that you probably 

 are endangering the sequoias. 



Mr. RuNDEL. Absolutely. 



Mr. Brown. But sound management should be able to obviate 

 that problem, I would think. I'm not going to go out and do that. 



Mr. KONDOLF. If I could add another potential threat, which is 

 based actually on Dr. Rundel's work in Sequoia Park, these giant 

 sequoia groves tend to grow in zones of ground water seepage. 

 There may not be enough water coming out of the ground to create 

 a spring, but they are moister areas than the surrounding, much 

 drier, uplands. 



And that ground water seepage must be fed by a ground water 

 recharge zone, somewhere above, but without a lot of study, we 

 don't know exactly what area is recharging that wet spot. 



So if you were to log on top of the hill, and if that were the re- 

 charge area for this ground water seepage, by logging and putting 

 in logging roads, you would be causing more water to run off, less 

 water to infiltrate, and therefore you could be affecting that ground 

 water seepage on which these sequoia groves, which could be a 

 mile away, are depending. 



Mr. Brown. Would you suggest that extensive clearcutting with 

 the necessary roads to provide for the removal would be a factor 

 that might prevent that kind of water accumulation? 



Mr. KONDOLF. Yes, absolutely. Clearcutting and the roads could 

 reduce the recharge to that ground water, which then emerges and 

 is actually maintaining the groves. 



Mr. Brown. I saw an awful lot of extensive clearcutting up there. 

 And I presume some bad previous administration did it, and we 

 don't do it anymore. But I was very disturbed by that. 



We had some big arguments over the ethical and economic value 

 of clearcutting, when we wrote the original Forest Management 



