254 



Now, the blue whale, I do not know what the population is, but it is 

 a relatively small thing. 



You indicated here that we have a situation which dates the resident 

 populations of marine mammals already in effect. 



If you do not know the population of these marine mammals, 

 how are you going to t«ll us the regulations are adequate or 

 appropriate? 



That is the purpose of a good regulation, knowing what the popu- 

 lation is. Then you can arrive at the number, what the harvest can be. 



We do not have the information at hand that is needed, so name 

 tliese then if you please, one State with resident populatioais of marine 

 mammals having, in effect, approprif.te regulations governing the 

 utilization and appropriateness of these marine mammals. 



Mr. Pollock. You are making a verj' flat presumption. 



I do not know what each of these States may have and they may have 

 the statistics on them. I am not prepared to say. 



It is pretty obvious that if you have regulations over a period of 

 years on a particular mammal and they are available in the area, not 

 scarce, apparently not diminishing, then your regulations must be 

 sufficient or adequate. Almost all wild animal populations are nian- 

 aged through various indicators such as average age and various 

 localized counts of animals. Total population counts necessarily are 

 estimates. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Woidd you say that is good regulation practice? 



Mr. Pollock. No, sir. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Is that the way the folks down at Commerce regulate 

 these marine species ? If that be so, maybe that is why we are in trouble. 



Mr. Pollock. Mr. Chairman, we do not have all the information 

 we need on any of these species, I am sure. 



Tliis takes time and there are studies that are necessary, but we 

 know by the presence of the animals that some of these animals are 

 not in serious trouble. 



Mr. DiNGELL. Then you have species that travel the whole of the 

 ocean. The gray whale has a migration that has mystified philosophers 

 and biologists for generations. 



The ix)lar bear, nobody knows where he comes from or originates. 



Seals, thousands and thousan'ds of miles. 



Tlie porpoises likewise, and most of your whale species move over 

 incredibly vast ai-eas of the ocean and we know little about their move- 

 ment and habitat. 



This is the pi^ecise point. Here you are coming in and telling us 

 we ought to make an exception to the State regulations of species 

 that cover, for example, all of the polar area like the polar bear. 



Seals migrate hundreds of thousands of miles. 



Mr. Pollock. We were not talking about pelagic species but rather 

 resident species in the territorial waters only. 



Mr. DiNGELL. What resident species do you refer to ? 



Mr. Pollock. In Alaska and California, the sea otter or the harbor 

 seals. 



Mr. DiNGELL. That falls under Interior, and Interior is not pro- 

 testing this particular section. 



Mr. Pollock. I am only trying to respond to your questions, sir. 



Mr. DiNGELL. I am trying to get your expertise in corning up with 

 an exception or justification for the section that you allude to here. 



