406 



Judgments on "humane" methods as well as management for human 

 needs are both homocentric. What we ask is a different view — that 

 we see and study populations within systems and use, as well as appre- 

 ciate and enjoy them, on that basis. 



That concludes our formal statement, Mr. Lennon. 



Mr. Lennon. Thank you, doctor. 



The gentleman from Washington, Mr. Pelly. 



Mr. Pelly. Thank you. I think my question might be directed to 

 Mr. Schevill because it has to do with porpoises. 



On page 7 of your statement you indicated that you are all aware 

 that the mortality of porpoises from tuna nets has been in the hun- 

 dreds of thousands. 



Mr. Schevill, do we have any accurate estimate as to the number 

 that have been lost in the nets and whether this is diminishing the 

 population, the porpoise population, to any significant degree? 



Mr. Schevill. Excuse me, sir ; I would like to pass this to Dr. Norris 

 because he has been in touch with membere of that fishery and people 

 there. 



I can just confirm that the porpoises are no longer as abundant as 

 they used to be. 



Dr. NoRRis. The estimates of numbers have been extremely hard to 

 make, that is, the level of kill due to the tuna fishing has been obscured 

 by the fisherman prior to its being released in the public press within 

 the last month. 



However the best estimates are on the order of 250,000 to 400,000 

 animals per year killed in the nets in the eastern tropical Pacific. 



The report is that the present numbers are indeed greatly reduced in 

 the schools and the schools are smaller and much harder to approach 

 now than they were at the initiation of the firstseine fishery. 



Mr. Pelly. Well then, I take it you are a little skeptical about the 

 love affair between the fishermen and the porpoises ? 



Dr. NoRRis. That was the tima fisherman's statement, not mine, I 

 assure you. I think that is a very rocky love affair at best. 



Mr. Pelly. Well, I take it you have not seen a fisherman jump into 

 the water to free a porpoise from the nets. 



Dr. NoRRis. I think that it would be unfair to the tuna fishermen to 

 say that they do not concern themselves with this problem and I think, 

 indeed, they do go into the water and attempt to release the porpoises, 

 but the problem is that the animals dive to the bottom and get en- 

 tangled in the net where no one can help them. 



Mr. Pelly. Are you encouraged by the development of a new net 

 Avith a smaller mesh in the upper part of it so that the porpoises do not 

 get caught in the net and can escape ? 



Dr. NoRRis. I am encouraged, but not convinced. 



The evidence, as I understand it at the moment, is that the propor- 

 tion of animals in the net to those killed has remained approximately 

 the same with the new net as it was before, though I also understand 

 that the data are extremely slim. 



I think that this kind of a development of change in the net may 

 Avell be the solution to the problem, but I think it needs much more 

 investigation. 



Mr. Pelly. Well, I think that we are concerned with an economic 

 aspect of the tuna fishery which is certainly important. 



