416 



methods, and that this area is to be used for fisheries production and 



that we managethe Bering Sea as a whole. mi u ^ 



This it seems to me is the only way to fly and be really sensible about 



If the oil industry or any other industry wanted to come in at a later 

 date, the burden of proof Should be put on them that what they do will 

 not hurt this fishery or the mammals or the ecosystem. 



Mr. Anderson. In the fishery you are talking about, the Bering bea, 

 is tlie present oil development 'in Alaska hitting the same area ? 



Dr Ray. I could not comment on that specifically because frankly, 

 it is a little out of my expertise and I think there are other people here 

 who might be w^illing to comment on it. 



However, to my knowledge there is exploration going on, m on the 



drainage system. , x- i? -i 



I do not think there is any offshore or submerged exploration tor oil 



at the present. 



Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

 Mr. Lennon. The gentleman from Maine, Mr. Kyros. 

 Mr. Kyros. Thank you. 



Dr. Ray, as I understand it, your disagreement is with people who 

 could be called "protectionists," people who are talking about absolute 

 bans or moratoriums on killing. What do you feel is the real best inter- 

 est of the animal herd or species and how can it best be served ? 



Dr. Ray. I really do not know what their best interests are. It is diffi- 

 cult to ask them. 



I really think this is a very difficult question to answer because we 

 are speaking on two levels. First, we are speaking on the level of our 

 moral esthetic and social values and I have been an ecological rebel all 

 of my life and I share these values. 



However, when we are speaking of just plain scientific fact and 

 biology you cannot always protect an animal by protecting the animal. 

 You have to protect this habitat and you will protect tlie animal. 



Of course, there are exceptions to this. Naturally, I was in favor per- 

 sonally of the moratorium that the U.S. Department of the Interior 

 put on last year on whales because it seemed to be hitting at the eco- 

 nomic pockets of the whalers wlio are then put under pressure. 



I am in favor of comj^lete protection of endangered species, but 

 I am not in favor of what we might call the protectionism viewpoint 

 in conservation. 



I think this, as a philosophy, is an extremist philosophy that is 

 based on moral values that are quite right in a sense, but which 

 are not founded on biological fact, or reality the way we understand 

 our ecos}^ stems. 



Mr. Kyros. That is very well stated. I think that is an appropriate 

 attitude which rational men could adopt. Would you please tell us 

 which animals you would take scientifically, the number, where, and 

 how? 



Dr. Ray. This would be very lengtliy. May I reserve it to wliat you 

 say, scientifically only? 



Mr. Kyros. Certainly: I think that is the crux of the difference 

 between the Harris- Pryor bill and the bill filed by my colleague, Mr. 

 Anderson. 



Where can the animals be taken scientifically, putting social and 

 moral reasons side ? 



