417 



Dr. Ray. I would say scientific take as well as a commercial take 

 might be permitted and I think only under permit, only imder 

 restriction. 



In scientific take, of course, it would be utterly inapproipriate to 

 take a population sample of humpback whales or right whales or 

 blue whales. Any scientist that wanted to take these for whatever 

 reasons at the present moment I would personally not be in accord 

 with. 



However, for gray whales on the west coast of North Amerioa the 

 population has been estimated between 8,000 and 13,000 with a ball 

 park average of 11,000. 



For the breeding grounds we have not taken any of these whales 

 since the 1850"s to examine aspects of their nutrition, physiology, and 

 so forth. We depend on some Russian data and a few data from 

 Canada and one whale found on a beach to know wlnat we know of 

 that whale in the Bering Sea. 



In this case we might specify that 200 or 300 whales might be taken 

 on the breeding and feeding grounds to enlarge our knowledge of these 

 species so we can further justify its protection and understand how 

 to protect it. 



Mr. Kyros. What about the other mammals mentioned in these 

 bills? 



Are we prepared to say how they should be taken ? 



Dr. Ray. I think Dr. Norris might like to comment on how many 

 porpoises and how we might take these to find out about populations. 



Yes, I think that the scientific advisory committee set up imder this 

 bill or other scientists and their individual expertise could give a 

 pretty good program, for the take of certain mammals to learn more 

 about them. 



Some mammals would be prohibited from the take like the rare 

 ones; others such as the fin whales of the antarctic, we might very 

 definitely take a couple. 



Right now, the difficulty with the take of large whales, of course, 

 is it tied completely to the commercial operation. 



We should not tie science to a commercial operation because it 

 operates at a place and at a time, and this is not good science. 



Mr. Kyros. First, let us distinguish between a commercial operation 

 and scientific take. 



Are you prepared to document in each instance what the size of 

 the herd, what you need to take, and then take it for scientific pur- 

 poses ? Or would you say, "Let us not take anything until we study 

 it first,'' and then you decide what to take ? 



Dr. Ray. In some cases I see what you mean. This is essentially a 

 moratorium until we know what we are doing. 



Mr. Kyros. Do you feel that you need a moratorium or the power 

 to have one ? 



Dr. Ray. For certain animals we very definitely do. 



For other animals, a moratorium cannot be justified for a couple of 

 reasons. One is that the animals may be depleted, but they are still 

 abundant as are some of the large whales. 



A take of these animals, both scientific and commercial, could not 

 be eliminated on the basis that the animal is either rare or on the 

 basis that certain nations are going to also eliminate their take. 



