418 



All we would be doing by establishing a moratorium is isolating 

 the U.S. scientist. He could no longer take any and find out. 



Mr. Kyros. One of the bills which I would call a protectionist 

 bill which is before the committee, provides negotiations with other 

 countries with regard to the take. How do you feel about that ? 



Dr. NoRRis. I think one of our feelings about the protectionist at- 

 titude is that, indeed, we do need protection as one of the tools of 

 management. 



The real crux of the issue that we, as humans, have invaded the 

 ecosystems of every organic system on earth and those of the marine 

 mammals we are talking about here. 



This means that we have to judge and gauge the effects we have 

 liad on these animals, and this means some kind of management. 



It does not mean locking them up and not looking at them or study- 

 ing them. It means understand them; understanding what we as 

 humans are doing to them, even though we are not taking any. 



For example, we face an utterly unknown problem in the fact that 

 the highest levels, if I am right about this, known for DDT accumula- 

 tion in tissue, are found in marine mammals. 



"W^iat this is doing to the reproductive potential of these animals 

 we cannot even guess, as you have already found out. 



In my estimation, we have to get to work, and we have to be given 

 the tools to work to find out ; and if this takes some kind of manage- 

 ment, then so be it, but I think protectionism is not going to solve 

 that problem. It is only one tool that a manager shoidd use. 



Mr. Kyros. Protectionism does not preclude scientific taking and 

 research in any event, does it ? 



The protection we are talking about refers to commercial taking 

 in large numbers. 



You are now speaking about being scientifically able to take animals 

 and study the effects of pesticides upon them. 



I do not quite understand this esoteric argument you have just 

 made, that the hand of man has impeded every ecosystem ; for example, 

 our pouring our sewage out into the harbors. 



So return to the mammals, should you research efforts be tied to 

 commercial operation ? 



Dr. NoRRis. No. 



Mr. Kyros. Then what marine mammals today are presently the 

 subject and object of commercial operations? Can you list them? 



Mr. ScHEViLL. I can try, sir. Possibly obliquely I agree that we 

 should not get mixed up with the commercial operations, yet many 

 of the animals we are studying are too big for you and me to handle 

 by ourselves. 



You can give me a small boat and I can go out and catch a 

 porpoise if I need one, and with luck I can cope with it. 



For instance, when tlie Department of Interior was conducting 

 its great wliale study a few years ago, as Dr. Ray said, they chartered 

 a commercial whale catcher, and as part of the charter fee, I do not 

 know the exact arrangements, but apparently allowed him to use the 

 carcass in his usual way after the measurements and what all had 

 been taken. 



If we are going to try and study such beasts in the future, we have 

 certainly got somehow to have a ship that will do the work. 



