419 



As you know, these are very expensive things, and I think it was very 

 wise of Interior to use an existing commercial outfit with trained 

 hands who knew what to do. 



One of the things that the three of us are interested in is trying 

 to find if the small vessels could not somehow be made available for 

 research, which would have the seakeeping and big animal handling 

 potential. 



At the moment, none of us have the price of one of these things. 



Mr. Ktros. If you could do it, then, you would not tie research with 

 commercial interests, although you have done this before. 



Is it not a fact that commercial operations are really designed to 

 protect and increase profits, and are not designed for the best interest 

 of any particular species or herd ? 



Dr. Kay. Of course, they are designed to make profits, and I do not 

 think we need to belabor the history of international whaling. 



I think tliis has been, in spite of the legal advantage of having 

 limitation into a fishery, why the whales have been depleted. None of 

 us would argue that. 



However, in the fur seal case, let us take an example. It is the only 

 example we have where the commercial operation and the scientific 

 operation have gone hand in hand to great advantage and, if I may use 

 the word, the herd and economics have both benefited. 



Now, I am not saying I want to wear a fur seal coat. I do not. I am 

 not examining why we kill the seal, but I am saying money has come 

 out of it, and the herd has not been hurt, and, as a matter of fact, in 

 many cases it has been aided by these arrangements because it has 

 allowed us to focus our attention on this herd, give it a vast amount 

 of support, a vast amount of a public awareness, and given us a model. 



I absolutely shudder to think what would happen to the walrus, for 

 instance riglit now today, if someone decided to go in there and start 

 clubbing walruses. There is nothing to prevent anybody from doing 

 it if they come from some other nation. 



There might be certain laws, but I would like to see a model, a fur 

 seal model, applied here, but in this case I would like to see manage- 

 ment not be directed toward the kill of walruses, but to our enjoyment 

 of the walruses. 



Mr. Kyros. Do you think that a moratorium on killing some of these 

 marine mammals would hamper our State Department in its negotia- 

 tions to achieve an agreement with foreign countries? 



Dr. Ray. There was one statement made before the subcommittee 

 in which someone stated the position of the State Department and was 

 taken to task for it. I do not want to do that. 



Looking from the outside I would say if I were a member of a 

 foreign nation looking at the United States and I knew that the United 

 States was going to eliminate economic gain for a fishery, shall we 

 say, then I would be prejudiced against that nation. I would be preju- 

 diced against the United States because it would seem that the United 

 States on limiting its activities would also be limiting mine. 



If, on the other hand, the United States came to me with a broad 

 management plan, let us take the Bering Sea again for an example, 

 where we could take fishes and fur seals together and if I came with 

 this sort of management plan and no categorical moratorium, I think 

 if I were a member of another nation I would be favorably impressed 

 to say this is something I can work with. 



