423 



I am sure if the animals involved read the bills they would not 

 understand them either. 



I jusit do not see how we can have some marine mammals, for in- 

 stance the sea otter, desi^iated as a wildlife species mider one Secre- 

 tary, and another animal swimming in the same waters, the fur seal, 

 under so-called commercial fisheries. 



I do not understand this. Mr. Lennon. 



Mr. Lennox. Well, I will interrupt you long enough to ask you if 

 you appeared before the Subcommittee of Government Operations 

 when it was considering Reorganization Plan No. 4 ? 



Dr. Ray. No; I did not. 



Mr. Lennon. "N^liich brought into being NOAA, within the De- 

 partment of Commerce, and made this change from the Department 

 of Interior. 



That was the point of time that your voice should have been heard. 

 We raised that question before the committee that was considering 

 the President's Reorganization Plan No. 3, which provided for EPA. 



Dr. Ray. I might have been off riding an ice cube with a walrus 

 on it at that time. 



The fact is I assume that nothing is a fait accompli. I assume as 

 an eternal optimist that things that may not be right can be made 

 so, and I am simply saying if you are going to treat marine mammals 

 in the ecosystems that we better realine our depaitments and our poli- 

 tics along the lines that are realistic along the terms of our environ- 

 ments. 



This has not been done, and the plan for organization of the De- 

 partment of Natural Resources perpetuates the Bureau of Com- 

 mercial Fisheries versus the Fish and Wildlife Service, by whatever 

 name we chose to call it. 



Just because you happen to call it NOAA does not make any dif- 

 ference. If you call it the Department of Natural Resources, that 

 same division will still hold true. 



Mr. Lennon. I cannot recall off the top of my head the agencies 

 of the department of Government that will be included under the 

 broad umbrella of the Department of Natural Resources. I think it 

 will result in a fight whenever you merge anything, any facet of any- 

 thing, you develop a fight within committees, in the subcommittees, 

 and in the executive branch of Government as well. 



Counsel, do you have some questions? 



Mr. Potter. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I do, indeed. 



Dr. Ray, in your discussion with Mr. Kyros earlier we raised 

 this issue which I do think lies at the heart of the confrontation be- 

 tween the ''protectionists" and the "nonprotectionists." 



It seems to me basic to what you are suggesting that under some 

 circumstances it is to the best long-range advantage of a species or 

 population stock to permit some taking from that species. 



You discussed already the question of when this is justifiable in 

 terms of expanding scientific knowledge. 



Are there other cases in which such taking may be desirable in order 

 to reduce the ]X)pulation le\'els to some place below the subsistence 

 level for that population in their area ? 



Dr. Ray. Here you get into some rather complex, and by no means, 

 clear population dynamics and ecological and even genetic theories. 



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