425 



Now, you just have to recognize how many animals we need to 

 utilize to monitor ecosystem health. 



Mr. Potter. I would like to come back to the central question that 

 I was asking, admittedly in lay terms. 



It seems to me what you are telling us is that when a population 

 grows and reaches a certain level, members are going to die. 

 Dr. Eay. That is right, or may not come into being, Mr. Potter. 

 They may not be produced at all. 



Mr. PorraR. And it may be if you reduce the limit of the population 

 levels the survivors there would be less diseased. They will be better 

 fed and healthier — recognizing this implies a human value judgment. 

 Dr. Ray. In many cases, this is correct. 



Deer are an example of this. We just cannot let deer go, or the deer 

 would be pretty miserable creatures. 



Mr. Potter, Do we know enough about the marine mammals cov- 

 ered by this bill to be able to say now that we can make any judgment 

 on what the optimum level of these populations are? 



Dr. Ray. On certain species we can. The species are almost re- 

 stricted to the fur seals and the large whales. 

 We can make a pretty good judgment. 



Mr. Potter. As to those for which we do not ha\e this information, 

 does it seem to you that some form of restriction would be appropri- 

 ate — some restriction on tampering with natural levels of population 

 until we develop the research that would give us the answers as to 

 what the optimum levels may be ? 



Dr. Ray. I think it is not widely recognized that most of those other 

 animals are so covered. 



Let us take the far away example of Antarctica, two species of the 

 four species of seals are covered under international agreement right 

 now. 



Many of the fur seals are already so covered to the extent that inter- 

 national law can protect them. Many of the whales are covered, and 

 so are the walruses and the sea otters by the United States. 

 Mr. Potter. How is the walrus protected ? 

 Dr. Ray. The walrus is protected except under permit. 

 Mr. Potter. By Federal or State law ? 



Dr. Ray. Both. To my knowledge it is mainly the State does this, but 

 the walrus, as a matter of fact, is increasing, arid there is effective U.S. 

 moratorium except under two uses, one is Native use, and the other is 

 use by trophy hunters under permit, 



Mr. Potter. Well, we will have testimony from the State of Alaska 

 a little bit later today, and we can get into that in more detail then. 



You indicated on page 5 of your statement that it was desirable to 

 put more sensitive management authority into the hands of the local 

 managers. 



In theory I have no trouble with this, but as we all know there have 

 been cases in the past where the decisions of local managers have been 

 made for a number of reasons that have not been to the advantage of 

 the animal population, but to the advantage of exploiters. 

 How do you deal with these problems ? 

 How do you insulate the managers from political pressure? 

 Dr. Ray. One rather simple way as contained in the bill, through 

 the Commission. 



