427 



Suppose one out of every three from 50, and I really ball park it— 

 this is another irresponsible guess, but let us suppose this is true— you 

 get 15 a year that are produced, something like that. 



I do not Imow what the Alaska take is, but it is not far away from 

 that, and it has exceeded that, and you can be depleting the herd 

 by Native rights. 



I would not want to abrogate native rights, but I would want to 



look into this. 



Dr. NoRRis. The take has been very inefficient. A considerable 

 number of animals are killed before a single one is brought ashore. 



You should investigate that, too, and it may well exceed the rea- 

 sonable take for that species. 



Dr. Ray. I have been impressed with the fact that if you get a 

 l^ermit, permit for four seals, this means to many people that they 

 may take four home. But how many have you eliminated from the nat- 

 ural system ? Suppose it took 10 captures to get four back home ? This 

 is of ten the case. 



The Eskimos have an interesting way of looking at this, which is 

 anthropologicallv interesting at least. If they shoot a walrus, and it 

 goes to the bottom of the sea, they think it is still part of the sea. 



We know it is true, but it is not^a living part of the sea any more, 

 and you better define take very carefully. 



If he loses them all, that is too bad. 



Mr. Potter. I would assume that the bill as presently drafted, the 

 word take includes capture, so if you get a permit to take four wal- 

 ruses, you can harass four walruses, and if you lose all four of them, 

 that is it Charlie, you go back and ask for another permit and you 

 better explain why. 



Dr. Ray. The word harvest is not viewed in such a manner by other 

 people. 



Mr. Potter. I would like to ask Dr. Norris two questions. 



One, we have gotten some letters from operators of oceanaria to 

 the effect that oceanaria serve a valuable social function in that they 

 permit the carrying out of significant researcli. 



Is it your feeling that tlie kind of research that is able to be done 

 in connection with oceanaria has much value. 



Dr. NoRRis. Yes, I think some of the every original, and some of the 

 best work has come out of oceanaria. 



I would say that many of them are not dedicated to this. It is 

 usually the people on the staff who want to do this, and sometimes 

 do it in spite of the oceanarians management. This is not always the 

 case. They are useful in this respect. 



Mr. Potter. My last question has to do with an area I know you are 

 very much involved in — the use of remote sensing devices, telemetry, 

 and so forth in connection with what is happening to populations of 

 cetacea. 



What is the present status of this, and what do you think the long- 

 range outlook is ? 



Dr. Norris. AYell, the need here relates to questions like we have been 

 asking about the numbers of porpoises. 



We do not know where the porpoises go, and in order to make a 

 population estimate, even if you count the animals, you do not know 

 whether you are looking at the same or variable populations, and so 



I 



