little story about my first dealings with the Forest Service on the start 

 of this trip. I think you'll find it kind of humorous. Ifirst kind of got 

 the rdea of this trip on a trip when I was in Washington, D.C., in a 

 conversation with Cecil Andrus. They set the date to be the 21st of 

 August and wondered how that was going to meet with my schedule. 

 Well, it wasn't going to meet very good. My schedule was to start on 

 the 20th so they changed the time of the trip a little--cut it down a 

 day so that on my first day on the river I would be on my schedule. 

 No problem. They'd let me do that. 



I know by the end of August things slow down and I'll have no 

 trouble getting a permit, so I didn't say anything about it and they 

 didn't want me to say anything about it. Cecil said, "Now I want you 

 to understand if the word gets out that this trip's going to come off too 

 far in advance, the security people will cancel it and won't be able to 

 take it because of the danger of keeping security through that 

 canyon." So I let the whole thing go and finally I knew things were 

 getting pretty close and I ran into Ted Anderson on the river, who was 

 the river manager there. I said "Ted, I've got a trip some people can't 

 make on my starting date. I'd like to start it one day later if that 

 would be okay." And he said, "I'll talk to the supervisor about it." 

 And I never made any contact with him for a week or two and finally 

 ran into him on the river and I said, "What about that trip I asked you 

 about?" And he said, "Well, we just can't do that. Norm. We've got 

 rules that we've got to maintain and standards that we've got to 

 maintain and we just can't do that." So I get to the phone and I call 

 Cecil back and I say, "Cecil I talked to the Forest Service about that 

 and they said they're not going to let me run that on that date." And 

 he said, "Call them back." He said, "Tell them you've got some big 

 dignitaries from Washington." So I called Ted back a couple days later 

 and said, "Ted, that trip I talked to you about...! really need to make 

 that on the 21st. It's some pretty important people, some dignitaries 

 from Washington." "Yeah" he says, "That's what we get. Every 

 tinhorn politician in the country is going to tell us how to run our 

 business. You're going to have to tell them they've got to come on the 

 20th or wait until your next schedule." So I called Cecil back and I 

 was telling him what happended. Well, he said "Wait a few days and 

 let's see what happens." So I thought, well, he's gonna call behind 

 the scenes and I'll get my permit and everything will be fine. And 

 about three or four days later I was starting to get pretty nervous 

 since I hadn't heard anything. He calls me up and he says, "Call them 

 up. They're gonna put the word out today. They're gonna announce 

 it so just go ahead and tell him who's going." Well, I called Ted back 

 up and I said, "Ted, you know that trip I've been talking to you about 

 with them people from Washington, D.C?" And he just went all over me, 

 just like a setting hen on a cat. "Just this morning" he said, "I 

 wouldn't let Elton Handy go with one guy over his limit. You're just 

 not going to take that trip." And I said to him, I said, "Ted, what if 

 that one guy that Elton was going to take and that tinhorn politician 

 turned out to be Jimmy Carter?" And it sounded like he swallowed the 

 telephone. It took him five minutes to come back and tell me that we 

 might be able to work something out on that. Well, he wound up 

 winning in the end. I never did get a permit for that trip. 



