106 



ment values, we would be a lot further ahead in terms of the value 

 of that forest, and we would be a lot further ahead in terms of 

 return to the taxpayer. 



Now that is the debate that is beginning to emerge, thank good- 

 ness. We finally are understanding, and I think some of that think- 

 ing is permeating at the Forest Service is well, for which I am 

 grateful. I hope that these ideas penetrate further in the coming 

 months and years. 



What is at stake here when I lay out other criteria in the bill is 

 a little bit different from your normal forest planning process, for 

 very good reason. In the Tongass what has happened is that the 

 pendulum has swung way over here with this inordinate value. 

 The chief was up here last year telling us it was a wonderful thing 

 to spend that extra $40 million a year to build roads in the Ton- 

 gass. You are now saying you have no objection to that coming out, 

 but the pendulum is swinging back a little bit. We want to pull it 

 back a little bit harder. 



As you understand, that is what we are trying to do, and there 

 are honest disagreements about that. Nobody is trying to be dis- 

 honest or sneak something across. There are just very different ap- 

 proaches to how we ought to be managing our wonderful national 

 forests. You have some perspective on it. You are slowly but surely 

 changing. 



Some of us want you to change a little more rapidly. You under- 

 stand that, we understand that, and I would suspect that the 

 people on the other side of the issue understand that as well. That 

 is central to the debate that we are talking about here. You know 

 that, and we know that, but I just wanted to put that into context 

 and make sure that we saw thematically what the broad issue is. 



Finally, I would say please go ahead. 



Mr. Leonard. Senator, I would make just two points. 



Number one, over 80 percent of the national forest timber sale 

 program is above cost; therefore, it is not overwhelmingly below 

 cost sales. Over 80 percent is above cost. 



Secondly, I do not think we have to make pure black and white 

 choices between whether or not we will have timber programs and 

 recreation. I think we have demonstrated for a long time that you 

 can have both: that uses of the forest can be compatible, that we 

 can have timber and we can have fish; that we can have timber 

 and we can have recreation uses; that we can have timber and we 

 can have wildlife uses of those forests. 



Senator Wirth. I appreciate your comment on how much of the 

 timber sales are above cost. I also have been on the Banking Com- 

 mittee and listened to the very creative accounting coming out of 

 much of the savings and loan industry about how well they were 

 doing as well. 



We all know you can be very creative with statistics and very 

 creative with accounting. That is for another day. We have had de- 

 bates in the past about how that accounting is done. 



Mr. Leonard. In this case the appropriations committees asked 

 us to work with the General Accounting Office arm of the Con- 

 gress, and the 80 percent number that I gave you is from the ac- 

 counting system that we have jointly developed with the General 



