107 



Accounting Office and we believe represents the application of 

 standard accounting techniques. 



Senator Wirth. I am all for that. I think if we can come to agree- 

 ment on that, that is terrific. 



The other point that you make, that we can do both things, I 

 think that is possible, but I think that there are many of us who 

 say what both things means is probably at this point in many 

 areas, more emphasis is being placed on one set of values than on a 

 more historic conventional set of values. That is part of what this 

 debate is all about. 



I appreciate your being here and we will have a lot of questions 

 to submit for the record. Just as a final note, this issue of how you 

 manage a forest is at the root of our discussions about the rain 

 forest. 



There are those who suggest that the best return for the rain 

 forest is to cut down the rain forest, get the timber out and use the 

 land for the purposes of agriculture and raising of cattle. In some 

 places, that is a relatively traditional use of the land. We did that 

 sort of thing in our opening up a large part of our country. We cut 

 down the wilderness, that enemy wilderness that has pervaded our 

 culture for a long time. As we cut it down, we followed on with ag- 

 ricultural and livestock uses. 



Some of that is appropriate to be going on in the Amazon and 

 other parts of the rain forest. Some of it is not because the land is 

 not usable for agriculture, as you know, and the land will not sus- 

 tain that kind of livestock production for very long. 



The question that we then all face in looking at the resource of 

 the rain forest is what other economic uses can the rain forest be 

 put to. There is an increasing body of thinking going on is let us 

 look at the value of that rain forest by itself and see if we can de- 

 velop so-called extractive reserves where we can look not only at 

 the potential use of rubber trees and Brazil nuts and so on but the 

 potentially wonderful genetic diversity that is there which in turn, 

 in the use of the words of some biologists, we can prospect that ge- 

 netic reserve just as historically we might prospect for minerals in 

 our national forests and on our public lands. We want to help the 

 Brazilians to do that. It is their rain forest, their sovereignty. 



The model that we set up there, however, is one that I think we 

 have an obligation to model and look at here as well. This goes 

 back to perhaps the overall area of disagreement. If we are saying 

 to the Brazilians manage your forest for a variety of uses, we ought 

 to be doing the same thing here. That is where there becomes a 

 parallel in the Tongass as it relates to what goes on in Brazil. 



We are saying let us manage the Tongass, and some of us think 

 that that should have more broadly underscored priorities other 

 than timber. That is part of the disagreement. 



You understand that, and I understand that. I just wanted again 

 to paint where I think that disagreement may be. 



Mr. Leonard. Senator, I would agree that the problem of the 

 tropical forest is a very complex one. It is not subject to simple an- 

 swers, but it is true that our forest lands and particularly our na- 

 tional forest lands should be managed in a way that we can say 

 demonstrate both to parties within the United States and to the 

 world that this is a sustainable way of managing your resources. 



