232 



Senator Murkowski. I am going to ask my staff. If you use that 

 figure, then how many wolves are there? Let us see if they have 

 been awake in figuring with a pencil. 



About 500 wolves? 



I got 5,000 from out in the audience. Somebody dropped a zero. 



Would anybody agree it is closer to 5,000 than 500? Somebody is 

 nodding their head and saying yes. 



I would appreciate the State Department of Fish and Game pro- 

 viding us with some detailed clarification. 



We still have 500 over here if anybody wants to do some arithme- 

 tic on it. 



Yes, Mr. Anderson? 



Dr. Anderson. I would be happy to pursue that for you, Senator 

 Murkowski. 



There are two other points if I could make them very briefly rel- 

 ative to this predation issue. There is an effect that we refer to as 

 the cafeteria effect. What that has to do with is concentrating 

 wolves or any other ungulates for that matter on limited winter 

 ranges. 



One of the potential effects of forest management or logging in 

 key deer winter range is that the remnants that may remain in 

 some areas tend to concentrate deer and make them more vulnera- 

 ble simply because their position is more predictable. They become 

 more vulnerable to wolves. 



The other quick point I want to make is there is such a thing as 

 a predator pit that is recognized by most predator/ prey biologists. 

 When populations fall to significantly low levels, it is possible for 

 predators to hold those populations at low levels and prevent long- 

 term recovery. 



I think that all the factors that have combined in the central ar- 

 chipelago have to be considered in this equation. 



Senator Murkowski. Thank you very much. The record will 

 remain open for accurate figures on the number of wolves particu- 

 larly, and I will defer to professional staff who is quite right on her 

 arithmetic. I will concede. 



What I am not sure we concede about is the number of deer that 

 are killed by wolves, but I guess if we find out the number of 

 wolves we can play the numbers backwards. 



Dr. Jerry Franklin, Chief Plant Ecologist, Pacific Northwest 

 Forest and Range Experiment Station, Seattle, Washington. 



Dr. Franklin, please proceed. 



STATEMENT OF DR. JERRY F. FRANKLIN, CHIEF PLANT ECOLO- 

 GIST, PACIFIC NORTHWEST FOREST AND RANGE EXPERIMENT 

 STATION, FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE 



Dr. Franklin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a correction. It 

 is Chief Plant Ecologist. The statement provided by the Forest 

 Service is incorrect. 



Senator Murkowski. We stand corrected. 



Dr. Franklin. A lot of people suggest "pathologist" might be 

 more correct, given my interest in old growth. 



Senator Murkowski. I thought that was kind of peculiar. I did 

 not think enough about it, I guess. 



