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thinning and we have to do it in the right places at the right time 

 under priority in order to get the best protection as we go. We're 

 talking about being able to use that material, we're talking about 

 controlled burning, when it occurs and when we can handle it, and 

 we're talking about a lot of silvicultural technique appropriately 

 apply in the right places. I would love to get to the point where 

 we're talking about that and the programs that would take us, for 

 example, the forest health initiative and a number of others, which 

 is a scratch at the surface. 



These things are going to be far more expensive, but could turn 

 far more money than we are now doing at the present time. I know 

 the concerns because I lived in those communities and intend to go 

 back there as soon as I can find a job, but we have to look further 

 than that and we have to do it in a bipartisan fashion. 



These things should not be partisan issues. They're really natu- 

 ral resources in this country, and the management of those na- 

 tional forests, which are a treasure like no other nation in the 

 world has, simply has to be approached in a more cooperative fash- 

 ion with better direction. 



Mr. DOOLITTLE. Well I don't disagree with the spirit of that, but, 

 unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be heading in that direction. 



I'm really more interested in cutting green timber than I am sal- 

 vage. Salvage is just a pathetic little stopgap until we can get to 

 the green, but it's a necessary measure to be taken for the forests' 

 health. You know how many of our forests look like that, and by 

 the time they get to that point I don't think there is much commer- 

 cial value left in the forest. Then of course when they finally do we 

 have to spend tax dollars to go clean that up, and it doesn't return 

 anything to the treasury. Then these very same groups will tell us 

 that isn't it awful that we're subsidizing the timber industry and 

 we have below-cost timber sales. Well of course we have below-cost 

 timber sales. If we cut green timber they wouldn't be below cost. 



You testified once, as I recall, and I don't know if this is still true 

 because this was I think a year ago, but that the timber program 

 paid for itself. Is that still the case? 



Chief Thomas. Overall, yes, sir. We have deficit sales. For exam- 

 ple, if you're looking at that picture in the middle, it would be very 

 difficult to enter that kind of a stand and remove all the dead trees 

 without banging up the green trees, and these things get to be an 

 interesting question. For example, if we were looking at that and 

 said well, look at the percentage of green trees, because ordinarily 

 the prescription in something like that would either be a seed tree 

 shelter wood or a clearcut. But going in and just removing those 

 dead trees would be a pretty difficult silvicultural prescription and 

 pretty expensive to do. 



Mr. Doolittle. And yet let me ask you because you're touching 

 on something I recall. Didn't the Clinton Administration come 

 down with an edict that if you took a certain percent of green trees 

 in the course of salvage that that was deemed to be outside the sal- 

 vage law? What is it I'm referring to? 



Chief Thomas. In that particular case there was concern about 

 some of the salvage operations that included a lot of green trees, 

 mostly those that were imminently susceptible to insect disease or 

 fire. The concern the Secretary had was well there is nothing that 



