Now I need to take you to what I call the virtual forest. It's not 

 real. It's computer generated from data. For example, the first part 

 shows you a ponderosa pine fire forest that has had fire exclusion. 

 This is the case much across the West. 



Now the second one shows you how these fires burn. They're all 

 dead. 



The next, and I'm on Plate 10 here, this was a harvest of the 

 past, logging and taking the large fire resistant trees out. Any trees 

 over 20 inches have been removed by the computer. 



Plate No. 11 shows you how those forests burn. They do not sur- 

 vive. The trees are dead. 



Now I want to give you an example, and it's only an example be- 

 cause there are other alternatives, but this is a dense ponderosa 

 pine, the same as our beginning virtual forest with the fire exclu- 

 sion. It has had the young trees that came in with fire exclusion 

 removed and has left the larger trees, over 20 inches in diameter. 



With prescribed fire or with wildfire the result of that is Plate 

 No. 13, and I want to refer you back to the little flames in the 1911 

 American Forest Magazine. This is easy to control and we still 

 have a forest. It is what I call fire resistant resilient. It is sustain- 

 able. 



Now I want to take you back to the real forest, the real pon- 

 derosa pine forest. In the real forest there are many alternatives, 

 many options that exist to manage for fire resistance and resilience 

 that would lead to sustainability and reduce costs in the long run. 

 In my opinion, not one of these options include a continued policy 

 of fire exclusion. 



Please, we must not make a mistake. Fire cannot be excluded 

 from these forests forever and attempts to do so have enormous 

 economic and ecological consequences which this Committee is well 

 aware of. 



The last plate is what is going to happen to most of these forests, 

 in my opinion, if we do nothing. Of course, the fires will continue 

 to get larger, they will be more intense and they will be more ex- 

 pensive. 



Thank you for the extra time, Mr. Chairman. 



Chairman Hansen. Go ahead. Your testimony is fascinating. Do 

 you need any more? 



Mr. Neuenschwander. Well thank you very much. You know, 

 my students never say that, Mr. Chairman. 



[Laughter.] 



Chairman Hansen. I've always wanted to say that to a Professor. 



[Laughter.] 



Mr. Neuenschwander. I have included additional questions that 

 are frequently asked me and I would like to have it submitted as 

 part of the record. 



Chairman Hansen. OK. We'll give you some more time when we 

 get to questions. 



[Prepared statement of Leon F. Neuenschwander may be found 

 at the end of hearing.] 



Chairman HANSEN. Mr. Cornell. 



