26 



Senator Kerry. But nobody has, in any event, come to you and 

 said red flag, red flag, this is what is happening to this marine 

 mammal population and we are going to have to do something 

 about it? 



Mr. Hall. Oh, in terms of the marine mammal populations in 

 the wild I think there are specific concerns. But I thought we were 

 talking about the numbers of marine mammals in puolic display. 



Senator Kerry. Either the takings for research purposes or the 

 display purposes, has anything ever crossed your desk to raise an 

 issue about a species per se? 



Mr. Hall. Judging by my few experiences with marine mammal 

 permits, this process is — they are very cautious, and err on the side 

 of conservation. And I feel that if there is any question in terms 

 of the health of the population of a stock, that they would err on 

 the side of not granting the permit. 



Senator Kerry. Let me ask you another question that some raise 

 in highly philosophical moments, but nevertheless they raise it, 

 and it is one of the issues in the mosaic here. We are very protec- 

 tive of certain fish stocks, and we are protective, as we ought to 

 be, of certain marine mammals generically. But marine mammals 

 are not particularly protective of certain fish stocks. And others 

 have raised the question of whether human interaction is or is not 

 appropriate in some case in terms of that interaction. I simply 

 raise this to throw it on the table for the completeness of the dia- 

 log. 



Whether — at the mouth of a river, for instance, there is an im- 

 balance that is sometimes created. Do you want to address that? 



Mr. Hall, Yes. There is a specific problem in terms of the Co- 

 lumbia River Basin, and we have looked at that. At this point, the 

 studies that we have seen do not appear to indicate that that popu- 

 lation of marine mammals is above its historic high level. But we 

 do not — I do not think we really know all of the facts about that 

 population. But that is certainly a problem when we are spending 

 hundreds of millions of dollars to protect endangered species of 

 salmon and then they sometimes do not survive the trip outside 

 the mouth of the river because of interactions with marine mam- 

 mals. 



I am not prepared at this point to say what we might do about 

 that or whetner we should do anything about it at this point. 



Senator Kerry. No, but you have to admit there is a certain 

 ironv in the impact of human interference, such as pouring hun- 

 dreds of millions of dollars into the preservation of the marine 

 mammals. While other choices that we make that also interfere 

 with marine mammals are not incorrect. 



Mr. Hall. Well, clearly, we have created some imbalances in 

 these ecosystems and made some of these species more vulnerable 

 to predation. And so I think that is a very — it is a tough question. 

 I am not sure I have an answer for it. 



Senator Kerry. Well, I am not sure I do either. I look at the fish- 

 eries off of Georges Bank, New England, now where we once had 

 remarkable numbers of coddock, that is a good fish — and cod, had- 

 dock, and flounder, and now, of course, haddock is wav down. And 

 we are left; with dogfish and skate as predators, and tney have be- 

 come the dominant fish on the banks, because of our interference 



