16 



Mr. Hall. Any kind of interaction in which you are taking pic- 

 tures and you are traveHng close to marine mammals and taking 

 photographs. Kevin may want to elaborate on that. He is with our 

 Office of Greneral Counsel, and there have been several permit ap- 

 plications where this has been a problem. So, Kevin Collins might 

 want to talk about that. 



Mr. Collins. Senator, the situations we are talking about here 

 are documentary filmmakers that want to get very close to animals 

 either in the water or hauled out. And the question is whether 

 their close approaches result in harassment or a take of the ani- 

 mals. And if so, whether that can be authorized under a public dis- 

 play permit or a scientific research permit. 



Senator Kerry. How do you determine that? How would you in- 

 tend to determine that? 



Mr. Collins. Intend to determine whether there? 



Senator Kerry. Where the line between harassment versus per- 

 missive intrusion is? 



Mr. Collins. That is kind of a hard line to draw. 



Senator Kerry. Well, is that a problem today in the length of 

 time it takes to get these permits? 



Mr. Collins. No. It is more a problem that when people are de- 

 ciding whether to conduct these activities, they are having to make 

 the determination whether they should apply for a permit, based 

 on whether they think they are going to narass the animals. And 

 if so, you know, right now we can issue public display permits or 

 scientific research permits, and documentary filmmaking is not 

 really — does not really cleanly fall into either of those categories. 



Senator Kerry. You do not see the ability currently under the 

 regulations to wrap it into public display. 



Mr. Collins. Well, there has been some reluctance to do that on 

 the agency's part. Just based on the criteria in section 104 for pub- 

 lic display permits, it does not seem to fit very cleanly. 



Senator Kerry. Well, how do you anticipate, either of you or any 

 of you — these permit requirements and the process to the require- 

 ments for public display today or for research? 



Mr. Collins. Comparing in terms of issuance criteria? 



Senator Kerry. The requirements, right, the standards of judg- 

 ment that will be applied to the issuance of a permit. How would 

 the documentary photography be distinguished in the standards 

 you will apply from the standards required for either public display 

 per se, or for scientific research? 



Mr. Collins. Well, I think educational permits might be geared 

 more toward the use that is going to be made of, for instance, film 

 footage. If the intent is to distribute the film to schools or univer- 

 sities or make the footage available to researchers or students, 

 things like that might be considered when deciding whether to 

 issue an educational permit. 



And there are other — this should not be limited to documentary 

 filmmaking. We are also talking about things like sending collec- 

 tions of parts around to schools, elementary schools for instance. 

 Transport of skeletons and things like that may be more appro- 

 priate for something called an education permit. To be honest, I am 

 not sure the agency has thought through what criteria they would 

 look at. 



