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bordering the national forests in question, live in the towns that 

 depend on interaction and economic involvement on the national 

 forests for their livelihood, or perhaps are people who live in metro- 

 politan areas who file these appeals on a routine basis. You may 

 have no way to quantify that, and I understand that. 



There is something else. I am sure it is not your intention, but 

 it would seem to me the format that we have established, despite 

 the best intent of individual efforts, good faith efforts of people in 

 your charge and people with the U.S. Forest Service, inadvertently 

 set up the whole nature of an adversarial relationship. 



Indeed, I believe one unintended consequence of the appeals 

 process is to set up almost a cooperative stance with those who 

 would obstruct or appeal or stop economic interaction on the na- 

 tional forests, but those who would seek to use the land are viewed 

 as adversaries. I am sure that is not the intent of the Forest Serv- 

 ice, but do you see a reasonable construct where that often hap- 

 pens? 



Mr. Unger. I don't believe that we or our employees at all feel 

 that we want to have or contribute toward an adversarial relation- 

 ship; just the contrary. 



Mr. Hayworth. Well, I am sure you don't. 



Mr. Unger. And we had proposed changes in the appeals process 

 over the years. In fact, a few years ago, we proposed to substitute 

 a much larger degree of upfront public involvement for the appeals 

 process. There was a very, very substantial public reaction in the 

 negative to that proposal, and the Congress itself decided that it 

 wished to install one by statute. 



Mr. Hayworth. Well, Mr. Unger, I cannot help but note what 

 has transpired in the Sixth Congressional District of Arizona; in- 

 deed, throughout the rural West. And even as I heard the Chair- 

 man recount some of his experiences in examining some of the situ- 

 ations in his home State, he mentioned at least one company which 

 no longer exists. 



And, indeed, in Arizona we have seen basically the complete evis- 

 ceration of any meaningful and any modest timber harvest. And I 

 just lament the fact perhaps we should all just sit here and wring 

 our hands and say, "Oh, what a terrible, terrible thing." Mr. Unger, 

 I thank you for coming today. Actions speak louder than words. I 

 yield back my time. 



Mr. Hansen. I appreciate the gentleman's comments. If I may 

 point out to the gentleman from Arizona that many of our forest 

 supervisors when you talk to them on a one to one gets so gun-shy 

 on these lawsuits that are coming out on people who are challenged 

 by the extreme environmental groups, before they even put out 

 that sale, they will call the attorneys for those people to see if they 

 can do it because they know it is an automatic hit. 



Now, I have talked to your supervisors all over the West, and 

 they say, "This is an automatic. We are going to get it. We are 

 going to get clobbered with this thing so why don't we just go down 

 and determine what is at issue, as our lawyers say. What is it we 

 are going to fight over?" 



Then at that point they go so it doesn't appear on the face when 

 the Forest Service gives their report that there are as many prob- 

 lems as there are because we don't hear about those. These are the 



