415 



Senator Wirth. Thank you, Ms. Ziel. Since the issue has been 

 made on the record let us make sure we all understand what hap- 

 pened. 



In setting up these hearings, Senator Murkowski and I agreed 

 that there would be lots of advocates from all sides on this, and 

 what we would do is to set up a procedure whereby anybody who 

 wanted to testify would let the subcommittee know by writing in or 

 calling in to Senator Murkowski's office. After all the names were 

 in by a certain deadline, we would then have a random drawing, on 

 the assumption that that would be a pretty accurate reflection of 

 the number of people who registered to come in. 



We had probably six to 12 discussions of this at one point or an- 

 other over the last couple of months before agreeing to this proce- 

 dure. The one item which I did not anticipate and was a little sur- 

 prised on was the submission of lists. That had never been any part 

 of the discussion. We just never discussed that, and toward the end 

 of the time period, apparently a large variety of lists were, as I un- 

 derstand it, sent in. And those were accepted and forwarded on to 

 the Committee in Washington. 



By the time they arrived at the committee in Washington, the 

 deadline for submission of names had passed, thereby putting us in 

 a very difficult position. One, there was not then time for other 

 groups to submit lists, making it, therefore, a relatively skewed 

 representation. Second, we could not, I did not think in good con- 

 science, turn down those lists, as a number of people who would 

 have thought that their names were in by having their names on 

 the lists. If we had thrown out the lists at that point, we would 

 have skewed the whole process again. 



So, we got snookered by the lists but not at anybody's intent. 

 There was no intent on anybody's part that this happen that way. 

 It was just that some groups felt there was a possibility, and they 

 took that possibility. The business of elections and how people are 

 represented in democratic societies and ways of influencing the 

 rules are as old as democracy. We discussed another example, and I 

 think that Senator Murkowski would probably agree with me, were 

 we to do this again, we would have an iron-clad whole defined defi- 

 nition of the list issue. 



I would just add two other items. The panels were very carefully 

 balanced to reflect a wide range of perspectives. I think, as yester- 

 day, the panels today will do so. Second, any individuals who sug- 

 gest that this is a conspiracy by any member of this committee or 

 somebody else is absolutely wrong. We have done this as carefully 

 as possible and just had not foreseen the list issue, and that was 

 slipped right in unbeknown to any of us. And it happened, and that 

 is the best I can do in describing it. If people feel that they have 

 been treated unfairly in the process, I apologize for myself and on 

 behalf of the committee. Those are issues that we deny and regret 

 that they happened. 



Senator Murkowski, I do not know if you want to add an3dhing 

 at this point for the record, as to how we arrived at where we are? 



Senator Murkowski. As you recall, we had several discussions on 

 the floor. We did not know whether to open it up on first-come, 

 first-served basis, as people tried to get to the offices of Juneau or 

 Ketchikan, or whether because some of the areas were very remote 



