their opening statements until we can have the questions pro- 

 pounded to Ms. Rivlin and then let her depart for some other com- 

 mitments she has. 



So I will start with Senator Gorton. 



Senator GORTON. As I understand your testimony, Ms. Rivlin, 

 the funding offsets, $60 million, and then maybe $30 million a 

 year, will all come through section 4(h)(10)(c) of the Northwest 

 Power Act in the next 4 or 5 years. 



Ms. Rivlin. That is right, but there are two different pieces in 

 it. There are 



Senator GORTON. But that is the 



Ms. Rivlin. That is right. 



Senator GORTON [continuing]. Source of it. 



Ms. Rivlin. Right. 



Senator Gorton. So you are not going to recommend any appro- 

 priated funds. 



Ms. Rivlin. Right. 



Senator GORTON. And the net results of this help will be simply 

 that those amounts each year will be subtracted from what would 

 otherwise be the debt payment that Bonneville will make to the 

 Federal Treasury. 



Ms. Rivlin. That is right. It is a credit against their debt pay- 

 ment. 



Senator GORTON. So the net impact of that is that instead of 

 these costs being imposed simply on the customers of the Bonne- 

 ville Power Administration, they will be spread out over all the 

 people of the United States in the form of that much larger a na- 

 tional debt. 



Ms. Rivlin. That is right. 



Senator GORTON. OK. Do you, in making your decisions, and I 

 recognize you are from the Office of Management and Budget, but 

 have you attempted to make any independent determination as to 

 whether the total amount of money being spent here, together with 

 the $300 million-plus that is already being spent by Bonneville on 

 salmon restoration, is the most efficient way of utilizing money for 

 salmon restoration in the Pacific Northwest. And will this get us 

 the most salmon for the amount of money that we are spending, 

 or have you just simply accepted a framework and you are figuring 

 out how to pay for a framework, the validity of which you have not 

 judged? 



Ms. Rivlin. No; we have not done any independent studies. Our 

 analysis is based on the National Marine Fisheries Service's bio- 

 logical opinion, and it is their opinion that part of the recovery plan 

 requires these changes in the operation of Bonneville. 



Senator Gorton. You are accepting their proposition 



Ms. Rivlin. That is right. 



Senator Gorton [continuing]. And just trying to figure out a way 

 to pay for it. One of the great difficulties that Bonneville is having 

 at the present time is its own customers, that its costs are being 

 forced to the point at which, for many customers, they are not nec- 

 essarily competitive. 



Every week I have some group or organization in my office that 

 says, we are on the verge of leaving Bonneville, or we have already 

 left Bonneville for independent power producers, and that any in- 



