XXV111 



Mr. Fysh said he had read Mr. Johnston's paper twice. When he 

 first read the pamphlet he was disposed to dissent, but when he 

 had read it again and had studied it more fully he asked — " Who 

 questions it?" For so clear was it to him that the primary law of 

 value or price was the economic cost of production that it seemed 

 outside of argument. All they had to do was to follow the phraseology 

 of the writer — " the primary law of value or price." There was 

 " value " and "price," and value and price with the writer were the 

 same thing. Therefore the primary law of value (leaving out price) 

 must be the economic cost of its production. And the more they 

 thought it out the more surely they arrived at that conclusion, and yet 

 not break down the experience as to the law of supply and demand. 

 As to gold, he was not so able to follow Mr. Johnston's argument. 

 They could not make an artificial price of it. 



Mr. Johnston : Gold is measured by itself. 



Mr. Fysh : Measured by an arbitrary standard of value. And if the 

 output was so reduced that it could not be overtaken, we would be 

 obliged to fall back on some other mineral, such as bismuth, and 

 which is more scarce than gold at present. Gold was, after all, only 

 a matter of exchange — a convenience for exchange and measure. The 

 more he read the more he was convinced that Mr. Johnston was 

 right with respect to the law of value and price. Take wheat and 

 meat for instance. That he demonstrated by facts. The thing was 

 to limit themselves to his terms, and then they had only to ask them- 

 selves—" Who is going to question it ?' The law of supply and demand 

 was quite separate from the law of economic cost of production. 



Hon. Adye Douglas said he had come to learn, not to instruct, not 

 having had time to dip into the subject. With regard to the 

 economical production theory put forward they must all agree to 

 that. So far as he had been able to read the pamphlet, he quite 

 agreed with Mr, Johnston. 



Hon. 0. H. Gkakt said he had only cursorily read the pamphlet, but 

 was inclined to agree with Mr. Johnston's demonstration that the 

 primary law of value and price was the economic cost of production. 

 As to wheat, notwithstanding the increased demand and supply, the 

 cost had been enormously reduced, and that was accounted for by the 

 increased facilities of transit — steam and the triple expansion engine. 



Mr. Johnston : That has largely accounted for it — also the reaper 

 and binder. 



Mr. Grant : Thus value and price are determined by economic cost 

 of production. The same principle applies to the reduced cost of 

 meat. 



Dr. Benjafieid, in a lengthy address, said there was no question 

 that in the early state of society the cost of production was the value, 

 but we live in different times now, and all that had changed. Ricardo, 

 Adam Smith, and others were superseded by the opinions of up-to- 

 date men. Mr. Johnston had told them that " gold was our established 

 foot-rule for measuring value, and the standard of itself could noi 

 show any variation " ; again, that the falling of prices could not be due 

 to the appreciation of gold. All that seemed to him (Dr. Benjafield) to 

 be fallacious. Professor Nicholson, of Edinburgh, one of the leading 

 authorities in Britian— [Mr. Johnston : " He is not the best "]— said it 

 was impossible to take labour as a unit of value. Wells, whom Mr. 

 Johnston had quoted with a flourish of trumpets, as a modern 

 authority, said prices were controlled by supply and demand ; that 

 when production was checked prices advanced. [Mr. Johnston : I 

 agree with that.] Mr. Johnston had told them that the quantity of 



