August S, 1876. J 



JOURNAL OP HORTICULTURE AND COTTAGE GARDENER. 



93 



power, and men sure I should think to see we are not losers. I 

 do hope the Royal Horticultural Society and the Commissioners 

 are bound in honour to see we are not let into the loss that 

 seems to be contemplated by this meeting. The taking of 4 per 

 eent. and the risk as to the security is too bad, and we ought to 

 be helped by the responsible parties out of our position [hear, 

 hear]. 



The President. — If the debenture-holders like to address 

 themselves to the Royal Commissioners, it is for them to see 

 in what form they will approach them. I do say on the part of 

 the Society, it has not the means to do more than discharge its 

 existing engagements — to carry on the gardens to the end of the 

 year, and that with the strictest economy. I may Bay I have 

 got in my hand a notice given to the debenture-holders of the 

 reduction of the rate of interest. 



Dr. Marttn. — That is perfectly right. 



The President. — I will read the original, signed "John 

 Lindley, Secretary," and dated the 8th July, 1859. The noble lord 

 then read the original document, which stated that at the desire 

 of the Council a special meeting had been held the previous day 

 with respect to acquiring twenty acres of ground on the condi- 

 tion that the Commissioners would surround the gardens with 

 beautiful Italian arcades, and do other extensive works at a cost 

 of £50,000, giving to the Royal Horticultural Society a lease of 

 thirty-one years, who were to construct a suitable garden. Then 

 the document dealt with the surplus, which was afterwards 

 modified to the extent that two-fifths were to go to tho Royal 

 Commissioners and three-fifths to the debenture-holders. Aft9r 

 that the noble President read a resolution of 31st July, 1861, in 

 which it was stated that the rate of interest given to the de- 

 benture-holders having been brought under the notice of the 

 Council by some Fellows of the Society, who were of opinion 

 that money could be got at 4 per cent., it had been urged on 

 them to pay off those not willing to take 4 per cent. The Council 

 had come to the conclusion that the most equitable thing was 

 to lay the matter before the debenture-holders, and leave it at 

 their option either to hold their debentures at 4 per cent, or be 

 paid off. It appears, said the President, then, that an assent 

 had been given to that in 1861, and the payment accordingly 

 had been made ; but at that time the prospects of the Society 

 were much more flourishing than they now are. Next year a 

 Bum was realised not only sufficient to meet the expenses of the 

 gardens, but also to provide a sum for paying off the debenture- 

 holders, and so* in the following year the Bum of £300 was bo 

 applied. I have no doubt, as no one can have any doubt, that 

 the condition of the Sooiety at that time made investors lesa 

 careful in looking to the nature of the security of their invest- 

 ments than they would have been now [hear, hear]. 



A Debenture-holder. — With all this talk I should like to 

 know whether your rent has ever been paid. 



The President. — The full rent has been twice paid, and for 

 other terms only a portion of the rent has been paid. 



The same Debenture-holder. — Then I believe you have had 

 no paying business at all. 



The President.— Oh, yes; the debenture-holders had the 

 first claim for interest, then came the claim for rent, and then 

 and laBtly the claim for the capital of the debenture-holders. 

 I may say, however, that you debenture-holders have received 

 £30,000 in interest. 



A Debenture-holder. — But you have never had anything to 

 pay or to spare. 



The President. — I beg your pardon. In one year there was 

 enough money to pay for all the three claims I have enumerated, 

 and in addition to that the Society put aside £300 to be taken 

 off capital. 



A Debenture-holder. — How was the agreement carried out ? 

 . The President. — The terms of agreement were these : — First, 

 to provide for the necessary expenditure to keep up the gardens 

 at Chiswick and South Kensington ; next, to the payment of the 

 interest on the debenture debt ; and after that payment on the 

 £50,000 borrowed by the Commissioners. Summarised it is 

 this — First, payment for expenditure on the maintenance of the 

 gardens ; secondly, the interest on the money borrowed by the 

 Royal Horticultural Society ; and next the money of the Royal 

 Commissioners. 



Admiral Sir E. Belcher. — I would remark upon what are 

 called the " necessary expenses " of the gardenB. I maintain 

 that the accounts rendered have been unjustly and dishonestly 

 given to us, because we have in these accounts a number of 

 itemB of expenditure with which we have nothing to do as far 

 as the maintenance of the gardens is concerned. I am a Fellow 

 who took this business up with Mr. Freake. I was not sorry 

 when I did so, because he talked of 20 per cent, for our money 

 [laughter], and said if the Prince Consort would only join in 

 the affair we should be well started. Well, we waited a week or 

 bo, and then I went with Sir Wentworth Dilke, and we both got 

 an introduction to the Prince. We could have made a profit of 

 it — at least we thought so, because we calculated that, honestly, 

 care would be taken that no other expenses than those necessary 

 would be incurred, and not other expenses paid in preference to 



honest ones. Now, my lord, I belong to the Royal Horticultural 

 Society, but I belong to the Royal Navy also, and if I in the 

 Royal Navy had acted as you have done — so scandalously — with 

 our money, I should have been turned out of the service [cries 

 of " oh, oh!"]. 



The President. — The sooner you, sir, leave this room the 

 better [cheers]. You are not talking as a gentleman, because 

 you are speaking to me personally who have nothing whatever to 

 do with the matter. 



Admiral Sir E. Belcher. — I Bay your conduct has been most 

 discreditable and dishonourable [no, no]. 



The President. — All I can say is, that you are now acting in 

 a way discreditable and disgraceful to the noble service to which 

 you belong [loud cheers]. We are here to discuss the questions 

 affecting the debenture-holders, for whom I have a most pro- 

 found sympathy. It is impossible not to be sorry that the de- 

 benture-holderB are sufferers in the way they are [hear, hear]. 

 But I may remark this, that we can gain nothing and may lose 

 much by the use of this irritating and insulting language which, 

 I regret to say, has been used, unnecessarily as I think, upon 

 this occasion [hear, hear]. 



A Debenture-holder. — I should like to ask the noble Chair- 

 man whether it is the intention of the Council of the Royal 

 Horticultural Society to surrender the lease of the gardens to 

 the Commissioners? 



The President. — They cannot do that without the consent of 

 the debenture-holders. We have taken legal advice upon this 

 point, but I believe if the debenture-holders wished to make 

 some arrangement with the Royal CommiBBioners all parties 

 would be glad indeed. 



Mr. J. J. Loundes. — I should like to aBk, la there any value 

 at present for what has been laid out upon the gardens ? 



The President. — That would depend very much upon the use 

 made of the gardens. 



Mr. E. Bowring wished to say a word or two about that 

 simple matter of the three-fifths being paid to the debenture- 

 holderB and two-fifths to the Royal Commissioners ; but this 

 two-fifths went to the Sooiety exclusively. Mr. Bowring went 

 on to Bay that it was not a fair or a true statement to say that 

 the money was laid out in waste by the Royal Commissioners. 



The President. — What I Baid waB that the Commissioners did 

 spend money. 



Mr. BowRiNa. — Tes, the Commissioners spent £60,000 or 

 £70,000, and the CommiBsioners built arcades, the Society laid 

 out the gardens and the Commissioners made the necessary 

 outlay. He should like to Bay a word on the circular which he 

 was glad the Chairman had produced and read. He had the 

 clearest possible recollection of having received that circular. 

 The reason the interest waB brought down to 4 per cent, was 

 that the prospects of the gardens were extremely good. The 

 Prince Consort was alive at the time, and everything in connec- 

 tion with the gardens looked well. Besides that the debenture- 

 holders received two guineas in the shape of admission to the 

 gardens. They had a personal admission, or could send anyone 

 they wished in their place. They got in point of fact £7 2s., and 

 even when that was reduced to £6 2s. it was not bad interest to 

 get. In addition to that the debenture-holders were informed 

 that their debentures Bhould take precedence of every other 

 claim after the maintenance of the gardens. At the time re- 

 ferred to it was a good investment to take a debenture of the 

 Society. Another point of importance was this — that all through 

 the agreements " rent " was spoken of, but they must all bear in 

 mind that with the exception of one year the Commissioners 

 never received rent from the Society. It was quite true the 

 word "rent" was UBed, but it was used only as a lawyer's 

 phrase ; but what was really " rent " was the interest on the 

 money which the Commissioners themselves had to borrow at 

 4 per cent, to lay out and start the gardens. The Commissioners 

 spent £50,000, the Society agreed to spend £50,000, and there 

 was, say, that much raised on debentures. 



The President.— The total spent by the Society was £73,000, 

 and the total spent by the Royal Commissioners was £63,000. 



Mr. Bowrinq. — My point is that our claim as held on these 

 gardens ranks next to the working expenses, and not one single 

 farthing of the £60,000 could be received until you paid us our 

 claim. That has been our legal position. I now come to a 

 much more important point. The noble Chairman haB told us 

 we have been paid £5000 improperly. Ladies and gentlemen, 

 as ladies are unfortunately debenture-holders as well as men, 

 when £2000 a-year has to be paid to the debenture-holders, any 

 statement with respect to £5000 being paid would represent the 

 interest for two and a half years not paid to us, and that would 

 take us back to the second half of 1873. That second half of 

 1873 was during the unfortunate dissensions in the Society which 

 commenced early in 1873, and therefore I think we can trace 

 the non-payment of our interest to the unfortunate state of the 

 Society at that period [cries of "hear"]. Had the debenture- 

 holders voted on that occasion, when the whole of the Council 

 were turned out, and when the South Kensington interest took 

 the supremacy, I believe the disaster would not have taken 



