u 



JOURNAL OP HORTICULTURE AND COTTAGE GARDENER. 



[ August 3, 1876. 



place. I hold in my hand a paragraph I saw in the Morning 

 Post some day last week, and which, to my mind, seems to have 

 been inspired. It says, " The position of the Society is this : 

 It is not in debt, is paying its way, but in want of capital for 

 carrying on its operations. To the debenture-holders £50,000 is 

 due, but they have received in interest at -1 per cent. £30,000 in 

 all." Well, that looks as if we having received the £30,000 

 should not be very much dissatisfied if we have to put up with 

 a total loss of our money [a laugh]. 



The Peesident. — I must say I never saw the article myself. 



Mr. Bowsing. — Then we have a significant article in the 

 Journal of Horticulture. Ladies and gentlemen, it is no secret 

 who the Editors of tho Journal of Horticulture are. Their 

 names are printed on the front page of the paper, and one of 

 them (Dr. Hogg) is an active and prominent member on the 

 Council. Here, now, in the Journal of Horticulture of July 

 27th is the following very serious statement with respect to the 

 payment of interest on the debenture bonds : " The only fault 

 that can be charged against paBt Councils is that they Bhonld 

 have paid interest on the debenture bonds when a profit had 

 not been made. The interest on these is payable out of the 

 surplus receipts from the gardens, and as it is well known that 

 there has not beeD, except in two or three years, any surplus 

 receipts from the gardens, the payment of debenture interest 

 was manifestly most culpable. This has, no doubt, been the 

 reason why the Society has been so crippled all along. An 

 annual payment of £1950 for interest alone which was not due 

 would ruin any concern. Happily the present Council have 

 acted more justly towards the Society, and the payment of the 

 interest is stopped." Now, I hold that this is a most curious 

 statement to be made. People have been paid their interest 

 for the last sixteen years, and, indeed, because that is the case 

 we ought to be well content with our present position. Although 

 it is not my business to go against the Society, we ought, as to 

 a statement of fact, have our minds mad6 clear, because if we 

 think the Society has moBt culpably paid us our interest we 

 ought not to be very happy in our minds. It was my lot in 1868 

 to act as Honorary Secretary to the Expenses Committee, and 

 that Committee had always laid before them an accurate state- 

 ment of receipts and expenditure, and also as accurate an 

 estimate as could be possibly made of the receipts and expendi- 

 ture of the forthcoming year. Upon that statement as to the 

 past and the future was regulated the amount which was to be 

 laid out on the Society as a firBt charge — namely, the expenses 

 of the gardens. I may state as a positive fact that in former 

 times when I acted as Honorary Secretary, in no single year 

 did the Expenses Committee allow any Bum to go for the ex- 

 penses requisite for the maintenance of the gardens until they 

 satisfied themselves there was a sufficient Bum to pay the de- 

 benture-holders. 



The President. — Were you bound to do that ? 



Mr. Boweing. — Not bound ; but there always was a sufficient 

 sum in those days to pay them. 



The Peesident. — But you put it that the expenses for the 

 maintenance of the gardens had the prior claim. 



Mr. Boweing.— In addition to all that, you must 'remember 

 we had before us the estimate of the year. 



The Peesident. — Then it was spread over a longer period. 



Mr. Boweing. — At all events the minutes of the meetings show 

 that up to the last three or four or even five years the interest 

 was honestly and fully earned, and therefore, to the statement 

 that it was improperly laid out, that I think is a sufficient 

 answer. In conclusion of my remarks I would expresB a hope 

 that some practical proposal will be made [cries of "hear"]. 

 I think we ought to bring our deliberations to some practical 

 and sensible conclusion. It would in my opinion be very 

 desirable that a small committee of debenture-holders should 

 be appointed to confer with the Boyal Commissioners and the 

 Council of the Society, because it is clearly our interest and our 

 duty to place ourselves in communication with them. I am in 

 great hopes that someone will make some such proposal. I may 

 add that three or four years ago the Commissioners made a pro- 

 posal to the Society which I think the debenture-holders would 

 have received very favourably. 



Admiral Sir E. Belchee. — It does not appear from what I can 

 learn that the debenture-holders are to be present at the special 

 general meeting of the Society to-morrow to represent at that 

 meeting our interests. I should like to know whether at to- 

 morrow's meeting the debenture-holders can come in and vote 

 with the reBt ? 



The Peesident.— Certainly not. 



Admiral Sir E. Belchee. — Then'it will be all on'one side. If 

 people vote that the debentures be not paid, the voting will be 

 all one side. 



Dr. Maetyn. — I may say I have felt it a very great grievance 

 that we have not been admitted to the consideration of all the 

 financial matters connected with the Society. The horticultural 

 matters of the Society are all very well in the hands of the 

 Society itself, but that all the accounts should be arranged and 

 settled without the knowledge of the debenture-holders appearB 



to me to be a great hardship. I once more refer to the induce- 

 ment we had to enter the Society. It was because the security 

 was thought to be so good that the reduction in the interest was 

 proposed. I relied entirely upon the bona fides of those who 

 had the management of the affair, and possibly the result of 

 this meeting and of the meeting to-morrow will be that the 

 Boyal Horticultural Society will come to a dissolution. In that 

 case I should like to know upon whom, if upon anyone, we shall 

 have a lien— that is, on the property in the gardens. Debenture- 

 holderB, as a general rule, have always a lien on some sort of 

 substantial property [hear, hear]. I should propose that we 

 put ourselves in communication with Her Majesty's Commis- 

 sioners and hear from them what terms they are likely to give 

 us, or rather what terms we may look for [hear, hear], I am 

 not acquainted well enough with the internal affairs of the 

 Society to be able to know whether it is the intention of the 

 Council of the Royal Horticultural Society to bring this Society 

 to a close ; and while I am upon that point I would also ask 

 whether, inasmuch as Chiswick gardens are connected with 

 this Society, we have not, in respect to our debt, a lien upon 

 them. 



The Peesident. — I think the observations of the last speaker 

 are very well worthy of attention ; but I would point out this, 

 that if a committee of debenture-holders is appointed the com- 

 mittee themselves would undoubtedly look into their legal posi- 

 tion as to a lien upon the property of the Society, either upon 

 its property here in South Kensington or its property in Chis- 

 wick gardens. There will be a great advantage in doing that — 

 indeed far greater than in hazarding legal opinions here which 

 may be all reversed [applause]. 



Dr. Maetyn. — Then, my lord, I will propose a resolution. 



The Peesident. — A resolution has just been put into my 

 hand. 



Dr. Maetyn. — Well, probably it anticipates mine. 



The Peesident. — At all events I think it is a resolution which 

 will meet the necessities of the occasion. 



Mr. G. Reay. — Well then my lord, the resolution I beg to pro- 

 pose is this : " That a committee of debenture-holders be ap- 

 pointed for the purpose of entering into communication with 

 the Council of the Royal Horticultural Society and the Exhibi- 

 tion Commissioners of 1851." 



Dr. Maetyn seconded the motion. 



The Peesident. — That is the most business-like course which 

 could have been adopted. I should like to say that with refer- 

 ence to a remark made as to a possible dissolution between 

 Chiswick and South Kensington, that is not a matter that 

 properly comes within the limits of our discuBion to-day. That 

 is a matter which is' entirely in the hands of the Fellows of the 

 Society. 



A Debentuee-holdee. — After that resolution is passed the 

 first thing you have to do is to appoint a committee in accord- 

 ance with its terms. 



The Chairman put the resolution for the appointment of a 

 committee, which was unanimously carried. His lordship then 

 said : The next thing you have to do is to nominate your 

 committee. 



Dr. Maetyn. — Those who form the committee should be 

 thoroughly trained in all the business and affairs of the Society 

 [hear, hear] . 



The Peesident wished to say, with reference to the remarks 

 of Mr. Bowring, that he was glad to hear a gentleman of so much 

 authority in the Society speak, but did not endorse his state- 

 ment as to the mal-application of the funds being during the 

 last three or four years. He (the President) only wished to 

 make himself correct, and to show he had not intended to say 

 the mal-appropriation was made within the last three or four 

 years. 



Lord Alpeed Chubchill.— I may be allowed to remark that 

 we paid during the last fifteen years £30,000 interest on deben- 

 ture debt. We borrowed through the authority of the Royal 

 Commissioners £5000 to pay our past debts and expenses. Well, 

 it is very evident that if we had not paid that £30,000 we 

 should have b6en able to clear our expenses without having 

 to borrow that £5000. As to the fact of our being called to- 

 gether to-day, I may state that the bye-laws do not provide 

 for any dealing with the bondholders, but in the exceedingly 

 critical position of the Society we felt it our duty to call you 

 together [hear, hear], because our income is so low that in a 

 short time the gardens would be bankrupt, and then we should 

 be dropped into the Bankruptcy Court. We have also been 

 advised by counsel that the Conncil of the Royal Horticultural 

 Society cannot resign their lease of the gardens without the 

 consent of the debenture-holders. Therefore it is necessary, 

 both for the interests of the Society itself and thoEe of the de- 

 benture-holders, that some arrangement should bo made by 

 you through your committee in order to confer with the Com- 

 missioners and endeavour to get from them as good terms as 

 you posBibly can [hear, hear]. I know it is disputed by the 

 Commissioners and by others that the Commissioners are liable 

 to you for 10s. in the pound, or for one-half of what is due to 



