118 



J0UEN4L OF HOBTICULTUEE AND COTTAGE GAEDENEE. 



[ August 10, 1876. 



culture and Scuth Kensington. At the present moment our 

 position is this : We have informed the Commissioners that we 

 are unable to go on, that our expenditure must be reduced, and 

 that we are willirg to surrender the lease of the gardens to the 

 Commissioners, provided we can do so with honour to ourselves 

 [hear, hear], and in a manner in some way satisfactory to the 

 debenture-holders who are by far the moatpecuniarilyinterested 

 persons in the transaction. If the Commissioners would only 

 come to terms with the debenture-holders the Council would 

 surrender the lease. We are willing to do so, no matter what 

 it costs [hear, hear]. What is our object? It is to start again 

 with Chiswick, with this difference— that we should be deter- 

 mined to make the Society an absolutely pure horticultural so- 

 ciety instead of a local one [applause]. I wish to point out 

 that we have got no definite resolution to lay before the meet- 

 ing, as we are waiting for the Commissioners to settle with the 

 debenture-holders. If they do not do so, we who spent the 

 money will be drifted into bankruptcy, and then no one will get 

 anything at all ; and all others connected with the Society will 

 suffer unless pressure is brought to bear upon the Commissioners 

 to settle with the debenture-holders. 



Mr. Guedalla. — We must have a meeting to propose our 

 dissolution. 



Lord A. S. Churchill. — We cannot propose our dissolution 

 until we find what the Commissioners say. We must call you 

 together again. 



Mr. Alfred Smee. — I quite agree with Lord Alfred Churchill 

 that there never was wanted more than now a national horticul- 

 tural society [hear, hear]. It was never more needed than now 

 that if the Horticultural Society is to be maintained in its proper 

 position we must dissolve our connection with these gardens. 

 We have something like 17 or 20 acres. How are we to dissolve 

 our connection ? It is quite true that since we have had this 

 amalgamation the whole affair has been an entire failure. I 

 really do not blame anyone for it. The experiment was tried 

 with the best of intentions, and the Commissioners thought that 

 horticulture exhibited within these buildings would constitute 

 this a useful place of resort for the residents of the neighbour- 

 hood. That has been an entire failure, and I am rejoiced to find 

 the Council are determined to take those steps by which we may 

 act as a national horticultural society [applauBe]. Without horti- 

 culture there can be no horticultural Bociety [hear, hear]. The 

 sooner we are dissolved from this connection the better. The 

 Commissioners asserted that a large amount of money has been 

 spent on the Society. Well, the money was spent upon the 

 decoration and ornamentation of buildings around us. What 

 would they be only for them ? but are we to pay for these stucco 

 figures? What have they to do with horticulture? I do say 

 that wherever these gardens may be, an important obligation 

 devolves upon us — viz., to keep up a national horticultural 

 society [hear, hear]. In every country in Europe there is such 

 a society, and this is the only one mixed up with nurserymen. 

 I hope and trust, my lord, you will take every possible means 

 to have this question settled by severing our connection with 

 South Kensington [hear, hear]. 



A Fellow — We all knew that when we laid out our money 

 there was nothing here but gravel. The value of the gardens has 

 been doubled and trebled. It was very hard on the debenture- 

 holders that their money should have been laid out for the 

 benefit of the residents in the neighbourhood. 



Mr. Liggins. — It is very hard, no doubt, that those who live 

 in this neighbourhood should be deprived of the use of these 

 gardens and of attending the flower shows of the Eoyal Hor- 

 ticultural Society, but I can look back to bygone times when 

 this was purely and simply a scientific Society. It was to re- 

 vivify the Society that the union was brought about. That 

 being the ease, I think it only requires a large amount of money 

 to come in to enable a really good management to make the 

 Society prosperous. Indeed it was prosperous and successful 

 pecuniarily up to a short time since. What is the reason that 

 royalty never shines upon us ? It was thought we Bhould see the 

 Prince of Wales amongst us upon his return from India. He 

 would have got a hearty reception from us, but he has not come. 

 It cannot be that His Boyal Highness has any dislike to the 

 Horticultural Society, or that he has been surfeited with the 

 flowers of India. We ought, at any rate, to make a great effort 

 to save our position, and therefore I think a committee ought 

 to be appointed. 



The President. — I now put to the meeting the motion that a 

 committee be appointed to go through the accounts. 



The resolution was then put, and lost by an overwhelming 

 majority. 



The Hon. C. S. Butler. — My lord, I am an original share- 

 holder of this Society which I have seen gradually decline, but 

 for that result I do not blame anyone. As to think of canvassing 

 people, no doubt friends to the number of twenty, thirty, or 

 forty might be got, but then hundreds more would not set 

 matters afloat. It takes thousands of people to meet the ex- 

 penses of the Society, and it will take more than any amount of 

 canvassing will do to get back that which we have lost. I am 



really of opinion that horticulture will profit by the dissolution 

 of the connection which is now contemplated. It is, therefore, 

 that with pleasure I beg to propose this resolution : — 



" This meeting approves the policy of the Council in endeavouring to effect 

 a separation of interests between Her Majesty's Commissioners and the Royal 

 Horticultural Society upon equitable terms with the debenture-holders and 

 life Fellows, and requests the Council to urge an early settlement with Her 

 Majesty's Commissioners." 



Mr. Shirley Hlbberd. — I beg to second that motion, and I do 

 so in the hope that it will bring about a speedy dissolution of 

 the arrangements between this Society and the Commissioners 

 [hear, hear]. Over and over again it has been proved that oil 

 and water will not mix unless some medium be combined with 

 them. In our case the requisite medium wanting was the 

 medium of sympathy, which would have brought the two classes 

 together ; but we have found no such medium, and so the con- 

 flicting elements can never be united [hear, hear]. We must 

 take the world as we find it. For my own part I am not disposed 

 to blame the inhabitants of this district for not supporting the 

 gardens, and I think it would be as well not to cast any blame 

 on Her Majesty's Commissioners. The best thing we can do is 

 to gather up our traps and take our departure to some more 

 congenial clime [hear, and laughter]. There is no ubo in us 

 talking of canvassing or appealing to royalty. This Society, if 

 it is to live, muBt live upon its merits [applause]. We have 

 had the experiment of connection with the Commissioners tried. 

 We have been well represented on the Council [hear, hear] . 

 In the midst of many difficulties which have arisen we have had 

 some exciting and unpleasant debates in this room, but from 

 first to last we have been well represented. From first to last 

 our Council muBt have had much more work and anxiety than 

 any body of gentlemen would undertake except by being well 

 paid for [hear, hear]. They have done their best in the inter- 

 ests of the Society. There is but one course open to us now, 

 and that is to see once more — believing in our horticultural 

 functions, in their truth and entirety, and trusting to what the 

 process of time may effect — to Bee, I say, what we shall do in 

 the future [hear, hear]. As to the effecting a separation, that 

 is a matter this meeting cannot settle. It is for the Council to 

 lay down proposals under which the separation of interests 

 would be effected, and therefore, my lord, we are bound to im- 

 pose this task upon your lordship and the Council. Certainly 

 there is no glory to be gained out of it. I feel assured our 

 Council will make the best terms possible to have the debenture 

 debt cleared away [hear, hear]. Let us see that disposed of 

 honourably. It is a happy circumstance that in other respects 

 the Society is not in, debt. There is not a penny owing by it 

 [applause]. I feel assured that so soon as we are removed from 

 South Kensington the Society will become really useful to the 

 science of horticulture generally [hear, hear]. 



The President. — The resolution proposed so exactly, so pre- 

 cisely, represents what the Council nave been about for the last 

 two years without success. The resolution expresses exactly 

 what we wanted to do when we saw it was not possible to gain 

 sufficient means to support the gardens. We saw it was neces- 

 sary a separation should take place, and we were very anxious 

 in addressing the lette' - read for you to the Commissioners that 

 the two gardens should be separated. We took legal advice 

 upon the question, and found separation could not take place 

 without the dissolution of the Charter, and that that dissolution 

 could not take place as long as the debenture-holders had a lien 

 upon the gardens ; so that unless the debenture-holders are 

 satisfied I do not see how a legal termination can be put to the 

 Charter. I do not at all see how that is to be done. At the 

 meeting of the debenture-holders held yesterday in this room a 

 committee was formed, but with what result I cannot say. If 

 the debenture-holders pressed their claims upon the Commis- 

 sioners, and some equitable settlement wa6 come to, the Society 

 might start upon a new basis ; but there is at present a serious 

 legal difficulty in our way. It would be just possible for us to 

 accept the resolution before the meetiDg, but I cannot hold out 

 any hope that we can do more than we have done. We have no 

 objection to the resolution because, as I said, it represents our 

 policy exactly. I think we have done as much as we can do, and 

 I assure you I should rejoice were I able to say we possessed 

 more hope than we have of a successful result to our efforts 

 [cheers]. 



A Fellow. — Will your lordship let us know what is the pro- 

 position of the Council ? 



The President. — What is now before you represents it [ap- 

 plause]. 



The Fellow. — Then is the resolution satisfactory to the 

 Council ? 



The President. — I have no objection to receive it, but I do 

 not hold out any hope of action being taken on it. 



Lord A. S. Churchill. — One thing the resolution may do, and 

 that is to strengthen our hands [hear, hear-]. 



Mr. Wm. Haughton. — There is one fact which ought to be 

 kept before the minds of the Fellows, and that is — if you desire 

 to abandon these gardens it will be necessary to get the consent 



