DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE ON BOTANICAL WORK: 



Mr. G. R. M. 



Murray, 



F.E.S. 



1 Nov. 1900. 



34. And that takes up the greater part of their time ? — 

 Yes. 



35. Tou speak of the publishing of a Guide and of 

 Lister's " British Mycetozoa " : were those published by 

 the Government ? — ^They were published >by the Trustees. 



35. Turning to VII. (3) you say " It is impossible for 

 any systematist to cairry out an investigation of any ex- 

 tent without consulting the Museum Herbarium." Does 

 that mean that you have collections which do not exist 

 elsewhere? — Undoubtedly. Type specimens must be 

 seen by any systematist who is making a monograph of 

 any group of any size. He is bound «ither to come him- 

 self or to ask some of us to make an investigation for 

 him ; and of course a good deal of that is done both for 

 botanists in the country and for botanists residing 

 abroad. 



37. Have j'ou in the Museum a very large number of 

 type specimens? — An enormous number, especiaiUy of 

 earlier times. Before tho establishment of the Kew 

 Herbarium in 1841 practica!"y all the types published by 

 British botanists were lodged in the Museum. There is a 

 certain number in Edinlburgh and a certain number in 

 Dublin, but comparativelv speaking smaH numbers com- 

 pared with the British Museum. 'Since then we have 

 tried to keep abreast of matters. 



38. Have you added to your type specimens since then ? 

 — They are constantly being added to. 



39. So that it is, may we say, a common or usual occur- 

 rence that a person carrying out an investigation, having 

 worked for some time at Kew, for instance, finds that 

 bis work is incomplete, and that he must come to you in 

 order to complete his work, because you possess the type 

 specimens which are not to be found in Kew or else- 

 where ? — It is a constant .occurrence. 



40. And the pre-Linnean herbaria of which you speak 

 are used occasionally or frequently not for purely anti- 

 quarian purposes, but as an item in botanical investiga- 

 tion? — Undoubtedly they are so used, but I may say that 

 we ourselves often refer back to such specim'ens and 

 often have visitors to them. There are, however, periods 

 when that is not veiy frequently done, while there are 

 other periods in which a worker may be laying these her- 

 baria under constant contribution. But such collections 

 I may say are invariably consulted only by professional 

 botanists who are engaged in serious undertakings. They 

 are not of any popular interest whatever. 



41. Tliey are, I isuppose, iargely consulted for what we 

 may call simple antiquarian purposes ; but in addition 

 to that, I suppose they are also consulted as p'ant of 

 botanical investigation?— Yes ; but I should Hke to sub- 

 stiitute the word " historical " for " antiquarian " — ^the 

 history of botany. 



42. In' your answer to VTH. you speak of the herbaria 

 of Sir Joseph Banks and Robert Brown, as, with the 

 pre-Linnean herbaria, constituting a continuous record ; 

 but is the Banksian herbarium kept separate ? — No. 



43. Are they all fused ? — Everything posb-Linnean. 



44. Fused in your general henbarium ? — Yes. 



45. So that for historical purposes the man would not 

 find the Banksian specimens aU together, but he would 

 have to search in the general herbarium ?— Yes, every- 

 thing since Linnaeus. 



46. With regard to tiie Britasih Herbarium and the 

 General Herbarium, does the latter also contain British 

 plants, so that you have British plants in duplicate ?— 

 No. British plants exist only in the British Herbarium. 



47. Then with regard to the association of plants in 

 the same buildings with the palseontological collection, I 

 understand from your reply to Question XII. (5) that 

 apart from those which are exhibited in the Public Gal- 

 lery the fossil plants are placed in the Geological De- 

 partment, but under you?— I ought perhaps to answer 

 this a little more fully. There were two collections of 

 plant fossils in the Museum until a few years ago : there 

 was the general collection in the paleeontological 

 department, and there was an excellent collection 

 in the Botanical Department, chiefly, however, illus- 

 trating the morphology, fossils preserving their internal 

 microscopic structure. There was a large collection 

 made by Robert Brown, another by Sir Joseph 

 Hooker, and another by Mr. CaiTuthers. These were 

 all placed in the Botanical Department. At the time 

 when the Williamson collection was purchased by the 

 paleeontological department — half the purchase money 

 I found from my department to enable this to be 



purchased — I agreed with Sir William Flower — I 

 am afraid the agreement was verbal — that these 

 things should be all put together in one series in 

 the interests of research. There being no room in the 

 bornnieal department, and plenty of room in the pateon- 

 tological galle'ry, these were transferred for the puirpoBe 

 of putting them in as good order as possible, arranging 

 them ail into one great series. I am afraid very httle 

 progress has been made with that since then. Mr. 

 SswaTCl has been engaged in the work, but his leisure is 

 very small, aaid I have repeatedly urged that this part of 

 tlie botanical collecibion of the Museum sliould be taken 

 more in liand. But uiifortunaiteily it is a matter which 

 concerns two departments, and an initiative which con- 

 cerns two separate deparifamenlts is not so easily made. 

 Thai:, I think, is at present in a somewha.t unsatisfactory 

 state, but there is no difficulty in getting at any of the 

 specimens. They are aill available for research, but they 

 are not in the order which I should like to see, or com- 

 parable -R-ith the herbai'ium. 



48. Arejhey under your charge? — They are under my 

 charge. Not the whole of them. Those collections tem- 

 porarily deposited from my department in the Geological 

 Department are distinctly under my charge, because the 

 removj^l of them, I think, has never been sanoticned by 

 the Ti-ustees. If the Trustees had been asked for their 

 sanction and had granted it they would have passed be- 

 yond my control, but it was a mere temporary arrange- 

 nient. It would have been presented to the Trustees 

 in the form of a report, but, unfortunately, owing to the 

 death of Sir T\'ililiam Flower the matter did not get so 

 far, but no doubt it will eventually be done. 



49. Is that tih-e meaning of the word "then" in the 

 sentence : '■ The condition of this transference was that- 

 then the whole should be placed under the Keeper of 

 Botany?" — Certadrily. Sir WiUiam Flower sadd to me 

 if that were to be done he would himseilf app-ly to tiie 

 Trustees that the -ivihoJe of those colleobions, those be- 

 longing to tlie palasontological department as well as the 

 botanical ones, should be placed under the direction of 

 the Keeper of Botany, even though they might occupy 

 the gallery at present belonging to the paliBontological 

 collection. On thaifc statement I had the plants trans- 

 fen'ed, but they were never transferred with the sanction 

 of the Trustees. 



50. The meaning of the sentence is : that the con- 

 dition was made at that time that the whole should 

 be placed under the direction of the Keeper of Botany, 

 but it has not been carried out? — It has not beeis 

 carried out. The specimens are together with a view 

 to their being arranged, and when a scheme is devised 

 the sanction of the Trustees will be asked. All these 

 matters are governed by a strict Museum procedure. 



51. Is Mr. Seward an official of the British Museum ? 

 — No ; he is, I understand, employed very much as my 

 temporary assistant is employed, and is paid for the 

 time at a definite rate sanctioned by the Ti:easury — 

 say half-a-crown an hour. 



52. He is in the temporary employment of the 

 Trustees? — ^Yes, of the Geological Department — either 

 under that kind of vote or it may be that he is paid under 

 the preparing grant. I am not quite sure what his 

 arrangement is. 



53. Can you state what has been the use made of 

 this association of the fossil plants with your herbaria 

 in the same building during thetimeyou have held office? 

 — During the time that I have held office there have 

 been comparatively few workers. They have been con- 

 fined to one or two men. Dr. Scott, Mr. Seward, and to 

 some extent Professor Bower, who was investigating a 

 famous cone that Robert Brown had previously de- 

 scribed. He then made use of the herbarium as well 

 as the actual fossil preparations in illustrating the 

 structure. 



54. May we say that it was a great advantage to him 

 to have, while undertaking that investigation, the fossil 

 plants and herbarium close together so that he could 

 pass from one to another? — ^I should say so, certainly. 

 I might add that I can scarcely imagine a fossil botanist 

 who had not access to a collection of dried plants doing 

 good work in botany any more than, in zoology. 



55. It is not mere access to the collection, but having 

 the collection in the same building? — -I should fav there 

 is an enormous convenience in having the collection 

 in the same building. It is not absolutely necessary. 

 I might illustrate that answer more fully by saying 

 that in the exhibition series in my gallery I still retain 



