MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



illustrative fossil specimens side by side vrith the living 

 J)! ants. 



56. Part of your collection consists of fruits, and so 

 on : is that fairly complete ? You speak of the ad- 

 vantage of fruits being in close proximity to the. 

 herbarium specimens : is your cai-pological collection 

 fairly complete?— It is a m'atter vrhich is a little difEi- 

 cult to explain. "When the fruits of the plant are 

 small enough to be included with the specimens m the 

 lierbarium they are so" included. When they are too 

 large for that they are put in a special class of box. 



57. \Yhat I rather meant was tliis : In the case of your 

 herbaria the fruit is in all cases to be found, whether or 

 no it is desirable that the fruit of the plant should be in 

 a preparation by itself ?— As often as it has been found, 

 ■because sometimes we may have only a flower for example. 



58. But you may speak of your carpological collec- 

 tion, tlie addendum to tiie herbarium, as being fairly 

 complete ? — Yes, and illustrative. I look upon, and I 

 think every botanist must look upon, a separate 

 carpological collection as a necessary evil, but we have 

 done our best to make it complete. 



59. Perhaps this is rather out of your region, but is 

 your collection of fossil plants largely used by the 

 ordinary geologist ? — At one time I understand strati- 

 grapiiic geologists paid mqre attention to the- occur- 

 rence of plants in aiii'erent layers or beds, and deter- 

 mined from the liature of the fossils — used these 

 fossils aa evidence more or less of the antiquity of 

 particular beds. But I understand that that has 

 ceased to be so fashionable a method among geologists. 

 It is occasionally used, but not so much as formerly. 



60. In your experience while you have been keeper, 

 apart from the distinct palreo-botanists, you find that 

 the collection of fossil plants is not -so largely used by 

 other geologists ? — Xot so largely as formerly. 



61. In your answer to Xo. IX. you refer to the collec- 

 tions without going into any detail. Are additions 

 made to the Museum every year ? — Y'es. I tliink I 

 give the actual figures under YI. for the last nine years. 



62. Is that figure reached by a small number of 

 large collections, or by a large number of relatively 

 small cnes 1 — The figures vary from year to year in 

 that respect. V\'e have a steady number of small col- 

 lections, and that number is very nearly constant, 

 ranging from one specimen to a series of plants. The 

 fashion still exists — it is one which botanists to a 

 certain extent deplore — for certain botanists to issue 

 series of plants, especially in the cryptogamia. We 

 purchase these regularly, as they come out, just as we 

 purchase published books. One year we may have a 

 large bequest, or make a large purchase, and another 

 year we may have no opportunity of doing that. 

 Therefore when the figures are very large it is generally 

 owing to a purchase or bequest of a large herbariu.m. 



63. Do the figures you give in Yl. include exchanges ? 

 — ^Yes. For example, I might point to the years 1893 

 and 1894. 50.000 specimens were acquired i*n 1893, and 

 only 10,000 odd in 1894. That was owing to both 

 bequests and purchase of large collections. I looked 

 into that very carefully. 



64. Then in Xo. XII. (4) you speak of 150,000 speci- 

 mens of dried flowering plants not as yet incorporated 

 into the herbarium? — ^Yes. 



65. You say they are readily available for use, being 

 sorted systematically. Might we ask what that exactly 

 means ? — It means that there are collections that have 

 been acquired which, at the time of their acquisition, 

 were fairly well arranged, and required but a little 

 more arrangement from us. 



66. Were they named? — Yes. These have been re- 

 tained by omrselves in the original sheets in which they 

 were acquired, frequently loose between sheets of 

 brown paper, and they are- gradually being taken in 

 hand. Recently we have made great progress with the 

 work, and what we select as desirable is incorporated 

 in the study set, and what we reject is sent to the 

 duplicate room of the Museum. It is especially for 

 the purpose of reducing them that I seek the assistance 

 of the temporary assistant. We have made great pro- 

 gress with them, and I hope in a year or two that that 

 work will be practically finished. 



67. You make no statement with regard Lo the 

 cryptogams ?— We have no arrears in the cryptogams 



3499. . 



practically. For example, we have now purchased a 

 collection" of over 14,000 specimens that will take some 

 time to get in order, but my staff will be quite ready 

 to begin on them as soon as they are delivered. 



68. You speak of the duplicate room : is that the 

 room in which you store all duplicates with the view to 

 their distribution? — Yes, chiefly by exchange. I use 

 these duplicates very considerably for exchanges with 

 Berlin, or other institutes abroad, and I acquire very 

 valuable considerations in return for them. At other 

 times, with the sanction of the Trustees, specimens are 

 given to institutes where it is deemed that they will 

 be of service. 



69. Then ycu say that this series of 150,000 specimens 

 of flowering plants is being reduced rapidly ? — It is being 

 reduced rapidly. Twenty years ago, to speak within my 

 own memory, it was a verj- much larger series than that. 



70. Taking the figures in YI., I see the additions to 

 tlie Museum amount to 242,000, and the specimens in- 

 corporated 219,000 I — We have incorporated fewer than 

 we have acquired. 



71. So that your total of imincorporated specimens is 

 increasing instead of being reduced ?■ — Xo, these are being 

 set aside as duplicates in large numbers. That I think 

 you will find will bring the balance of figures to the other 

 side. 



72. So that these figures give us no just idea cf the 

 rate at whicn you are incorporating your arrears? — Er. 

 cept that I can tell you quite distmctly, beyond doubt, 

 that the incorporation is kept well up with the acquisi- 

 tion, because the reduction in that series has been pro- 

 ceeding. Then, again, of course, the specimens ac- 

 quired are estimated at the time of the acquirement of the 

 collection, but many of them we find are perfectly worth- 

 less specimens which we would never think ef .ncorpor- 

 ating. The figures of specimens given as acquired are 

 taken from the estimate of the number at the time — not 

 afterwards. 



73. There seemed to be a little discrepancy? — There 

 is a leakage in two directions which, not having been en- 

 quired for, is not stated there. 



74. In your collection have yoti any large number of 

 plants embracing any particular geographical area which 

 are not to be found anywhere else in Great Britain and 

 Ireland ? — It would be very difficult to answer that ques- 

 tion exactly in the terms in which you put it. If I may 

 vray it a little I think perhaps I can say something. 

 Roughly speaking, for example, we say that in 

 Indian botany Kew is enormously ahead of us, owing to 

 the great attention paid by Sir .Joseph iHooker and other 

 Indian botanists to that subject in their work at Kew. 

 They have gained very much on us in Indian botany. 

 In African botany I should think that in certain large areas 

 we are better than they are. In certain other areas 

 they are ahead of us, and so elsewhere. 



75. That is to say, you have a much larger number of 

 type specimens ? — In particular areas, say in Africa, in 

 Some places they predominate ; in others we do. 



76. Does that apply chiefly to the type specipiens, or 

 to all specimens? — To all specimens in the study series, 

 illustrating geographical distribution as well. 



77. For instance, then, in a certain area you have not 

 only far more type specimens than Kew, but you also 

 possess actual specimens which are not to be found in 

 Kew at all ? — That is quite true in a given area. It would 

 be difficult to map out such areas — it would be im- 

 possible — except that we know broadly witliin given 

 districts how the matter stands. I was giving you an 

 illustration in saying that in India, for example, to 

 take a large area, they are well ahead of us. 



78. {Lord Avehury.) If I tmderstood you correctly, 

 you said that the convenience for study was confined to 

 the galleries ; will you please explain what you mean by 

 the galleries ? — The convenience for the public for popu- 

 lar instruction, and for those who are learning botany 

 in any elementary way, is confined to the teaching col- 

 lections exhibited to the public. I mean the public 

 gallery in both the central hall and the botanical gallery. 



79. iHave not botanists free access to the private 

 galleries ? — Undoubtedly, and tables and chair and instru- 

 ments of research are provided for him at once. iHe 

 need bring none with him. 



80. Is every facility given to him ? — Everything, even 

 microscopes. 



81. W^herever it is a question of anything which can be 



Mr. G. li. M. 



Murray, 



K.B.S. 



1 Nov. 1900. 



