MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



certainly be going on just the same whether the tvro in- 

 stitutions were amalgamated or not. 



98. If I understand aright, your evidence on that 

 point comes to this, that there would be a very large 

 initial expense, and for the first few years there would 

 be a considerable inc-rease in tlie expenditure, and that 

 after that, the saving would be a very small one? — ^A 

 very trifliing saving ultimateh'. And placing all that 

 against the disturbance that would take place in the 

 course of amalgamating tliem, and tlie ultimate possible 

 convenience ta men of science (if having the collection 

 in one series, it appears to me that it would be rather an 

 extravagant step to take. There is on_e other point 

 which is perhaps embraced in your enquiry, and that 

 is, that just as there are disadvantages in the collection 

 being in separate buildings, there are also disadvantages 

 in their being in one building. One of them is that a 

 herbarium very much resembles a powder magazine or 

 box of tinder, and the danger from fire is one very rarely 

 absent from the minds of those responsible for a very 

 large herbarium. From that point of view the exis- 

 tence of two great herbaria in the coimtry is a some- 

 what desirable thing. It is quite possible that if a very 

 expensive building was put up the danger from fire 

 would be reduced to a minimum, but at present in the 

 Natural History Museum we get the advantage of the 

 careful patrolment of the Museum, and the excellent 

 character of the building, and we feel ourselves there- 

 fore remarkably safe. Our herbarium f.s patrolled at 

 intei-vals of a few hours all might, from the time the 

 Museum closes until it is opened again in the morning. 

 To make a buildf.ng for the two lierbai'ia which shall 

 be quite sufficiently patrolled and watched would cost 

 a good deal of money. 



99. I think it practically comes to this, that the 

 salaries and wages would have to be largely increased 

 for the first few years? — I would not say largely, but 

 it would have to be increased while the amalgamation 

 was in progress. 



100. And if the same amount of scientific work were 

 to be done afterwards, there would be practically no 

 saving in that respect? — I should deplore very much 

 any cutting down of the staff, in the interest of efii- 

 ciency. 



101. But with regard to purchases, which amount to 

 £400, the saving would be very trifling, because in 

 most cases that amount is givgn for collections which it 

 would be desirable to acquire in any case, whether the 

 herbarium is at Kew or in the Natural History 

 Museum? — That is so. 



102. With regard to the purchase of books, the £150 

 might be reduced by £50 or even a £100?— £50 to 

 £100. 



103. And the £45 might be halved ?— Yes. 



104. But as regards preparing, practically that would 

 be the same in any case ? — ^Tes. 



105. The catalogues which are printed you say would 

 remain as they are? — ^Tes. 



106. And lastly in the case of tlie furniture and fit- 

 tings, you would require the same cases and so 

 on, but there would be a considerable initial increase, 

 and you do not see that there would be very much 

 saving? — ^There would be no ultimate saving, but a 

 large initial cost under that head. 



107. Therefore it seems to me to come to this, that 

 there would be a considerable initial increase of expen- 

 diture, and there might be a saving of £300 or £400 a 

 year eventually? — ^Tou have exactly arrived at the 

 figures which I arrived at — ^a saving of £300 or £400 a 

 year at the -end. 



108. (Mr. Godman.) I do not quite understand why 

 palaeontologists working at the botanical specimens had 

 of necessdty to come to consult the herbaria ? — They 

 consult perhaps the botanical staff more than the her- 

 barium. They very frequently appeal to us for an 

 opinion on the structures. 



109. Not the herbarium itself? — Not so much the 

 herbarium as the staff. They do consult the herbarium, 

 as in the case of the (instance I gave to Lord Avebury, 

 of the Wealden Flora, but they appeal more to the 

 staff. 



110. Have you much room for expansion now in your 

 present galleries ? — I hav4 room for normal expansion 

 for a considerable number of years, except in the cryp- 

 togamic rooms. I am afraid that the herbarium has 

 been growing rather fast, but I think I can provide for 



3499. 



it with a little structural altoratiun ai a very trifling ^,._ (;_ ^>_ ^ 

 expense. Muiray, 



111. {Mr. Seymour.) You said just now you thought i-'-R.S. 

 there might be an ultimate savhig of £300 or £400 a 



year : did you mean by that on your own vote, or on the 

 vote for Kew as well? — I msant by the combination of 

 both establishments. I arrived at these figures in thai 

 way. 



112. {Lord Avebury.) That would be subject to the 

 interest on the initial expenditure? — Yes. 



113. {Mr. Seymour.) Apart from, the question of 

 expense, your own opinion is not_in favour of amalga- 

 mation, 1 understand? — I admit it is a very difficult 

 questilon, and I admit the validity and strength of many 

 arguments in favour of combining the two herbaria 

 from a scientific point of view, but I see other objec- 

 tions. I take the view that if these two herbaria were 

 once combined it w'ould be a magnificent herbarium, 

 and one no doubt of v/hich everybody must be 

 extremely proud. At present I see advantages in 

 keeping them apart on the grounds of safety and 

 otherwise. It has always been the endeavour of the 

 staff at Kew, as it has been of mine, to reduce the dis- 

 advantages of their being apart to a minimum. We 

 constantly know what is being done by the staff at Kew, 

 and they know what we are doing. Students pass from 

 one to the other, many of them engaged in monographs 

 and so on. We are in constant communication with 

 each other, so that we reduce the disadvantages of their 

 being apart to a minimum. We know what is going on, 

 and can communicate with each other. We frequently 

 visit Kew, and their staff frequently visit us. On the 

 other hand, of course, if there were to be a combined 

 Herbaiiium, I hold very strongly that it should be in 

 London, and that it should be very readily accessible 

 to members of the public. I have, I think, stated in 

 one part of my answer that there are many professional 

 men who are botanists or interested in botany, in London, 

 or who make short visits to London, who come to us 

 for a few hours' or a day's work, to whom a herbarium 

 outside London would be almost inaccessible, and that 

 class of student, who does a great deal of valuable 

 scientific work in the country, would meet with serious 

 inconvenience. 



114. {Lord Avebury.) Does not that apply to provin- 

 cial botanists who have to come up to London ? — It applies 

 most strongly to them, and occasionally medical men in 

 practice interested in botany, who make flying visits to 

 us for the study of a few plants. It applies very largely 

 to provincial and foreign botanists. 



115. (Mr. Seyntour.) Do I understand that your chief 

 objection to amalgamation is the question of fire? — That 

 is the chief objection, and, if I might add, the recog- 

 nition of the fact that there would be practically no 

 economy in amalgamating. I wish you clearly to under- 

 stand that the £300 or £400 a year would, as Lord Ave- 

 bury reminded me just now, entirely disappear in in- 

 terest on the large initial cost of building a new her- 

 barium and equipping it. It would be subject to that 

 reduction. 



116. (Professor Balfour.) Have you any idea whether 

 you have more what I may call unique type speci- 

 mens than they have at Kew ? — I will put it this way, 

 that Kew has certainly more unique type specimens 

 in flowering plants than we have, considerably more ; and 

 that we have very considerably more in cryptogams than 

 they have. 



117. I understand you give special attention to crypto- 

 gams ?-— There has been a great growth of the cryptogamic 

 herbarium in the past twentry years. We have made 

 many acquisitions. It was very imperfectly represented 

 before, both at Kew and the British Museum, but we 

 have enormously increased our specimens. 



118. You say you have practically made it since 1875 ? 

 — There were older collections, and they were not in 

 very good order, and putting them in order led to more 

 acquisitions, so that practically we have made it since 

 1875. 



119. Has the work of your men at the British Museum 

 been hampered by the want of the unique specimens 

 they have at Kew? — I think not. WTien it is desired 

 to see certain types at Kew the member of the staff in 

 question goes off, reporting the nature of his visit before 

 he goes, and he may attend there for a day or only for 

 an hour or two. I think we suffer little or no incon- 

 venience from that. For example, when Sir Joseph 

 Hooker was describing the grasses of the British India 

 Flora, he desired Dr. Kendle's assistance, and with the 



B 



1 Nov. 1900. 



