MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



ir 



any means by which it miglit be set on fire, except by 

 lightning? — Yes, a inatclu 



286. Are you aware that no lights are admitted? — 

 I am painfully aware of that. There is only one place 

 where you can light a spirit lamp to boil a plant for 

 dissection. 



287. I am quite aware of tlie structure and its 

 defects, but what I want to bring out is, that apart 

 from improbable contingencies, there _is no real risk 

 of its being set on fire? — But improbable contingencies 

 are just tJie things that happen. 



288. But apart from those. I do_not wish to discuss 

 it too fai', but I want to put it this way : compared 

 with a building which is full of inhabitants and fires, 

 and where people sleep, it is on a very different footing? 

 — ^Yes ; it is on a different footing from that. It is quite 

 different from a house where there are a good many 

 fire places, housemaids, muslin curtains, and so on. 

 But the possibility of fixe, I tliink, is not at all a 

 remote contingency. 



289. {Lord Avebury.) I should like to get an idea 

 in what condition you would leave the Natural History 

 Collection in London? — I have just suggested that I 

 think a full British collection should be there. 



290. Nothing but a British oollection? — Flowering 

 plants and Cryptogams for a complete British collec- 

 tion, and representative collections, not complet-e, but 

 giving specimens of the important and striking plants 

 of India, and of all the British Colonies, and I have 

 suggested that these should be arranged in several 

 suites of cabinets, the English plants in one set of 

 cabinets in their natural families, arranged as at Kew, 

 within covers, and so on. Then the plants of India in 

 another, the plants of Australia in a third, and I would 

 also have a set of specimens that might help palaeon- 

 tologists. 



291. That would involve the formation of an entirely 

 new collection? — Tliere is a British oollection, as I 



K.C.I.E., 

 F.K.S. 



understand, now in the British Museum, and that ^ould ,_s„' G. King, 

 be just left there. 



292. I am sj^eaking of the second part of your an- 

 swer? — The collection would have to be brought ti>-r.-[^~ ^0^,^^ 

 gether. I would have only small collections. The one ' ^" 



of India might represent specimens of the chief planta, 

 well known things like teak, various oaks, figs, and so 

 on ; the leading plants — not by any means a complete 

 herbarium. 



293. Do you not think that, in an institution like 

 the British Museum, it might be very misleading to 

 the public to have selected collections of that kind ? — 

 I do not think so. 



2D4. Then you said, I tJiink, that it was very impor- 

 tant that collections should be most easy of access, and 

 easily consulted. Would they not be more easy of 

 access and more easily consulted in London than any- 

 where outside of London? — The reason for putting the 

 big collections at Kew would be this, that you must 

 have a large herbarium at Kew in order to properly 

 work the botanical gardens. You neetl a collection 

 which contains a good number of type specimens, a 

 typical collection. You could not work Kew with an 

 imperfect collection, because plants are sent to Kew 

 to be named from various parts of die world, and it 

 would be a bad result if wrong names were given, 

 simply from want of standard specimens with which to 

 match the specimens sent for identification. 



295. That, you think, outweighs the other considera- 

 tions? — Yes. There is plenty of room. 



296. (Sir John Kirk.) Unless there is anything fur- 

 ther you wish to state, that will complete what we- 

 shall require from you? — There ought to be good ar- 

 rangements for boiling and dissecting plants in the 

 new building. At present in Kew there is only one ■ 

 place where you are allowed to light a spirit lamp to 

 boil a specimen, and there ought to be a great deal, 

 more facilitv in the new building. I think that is all.. 



Mr. Charles Babon Claeke, f.k.s., formerly of the Bengal Civil Service, and Acting Superintendent, 

 of the Royal Botanical Gardens at Sibpur ; called, and examined. 



297. (Sir John Kirk.) You have been working at the 

 preparations of floras and botanical monographs for 

 some considerable time ? — Yes. 



298. Can you give us an idea of how many years that 

 mar have extended over? — I have been home thirteen 

 years, and I was at home on duty for six years at work 

 on the flora of British India, su "that I have practically 

 been home nineteen years, four-fifths of which I spent 

 at Kew, and one-fifth at the British Museum. 



299. You have made use both of Kew and the British 

 Museum ? — ^Certainly. 



300. You have been present and heard tihe evidence 

 of Sir George King? — Yes. 



301. Generally speaking, do you agrr:e largely with 

 him? — ^I agree with Mm largely, bat not wholly by any 

 means. 



302. I only put that question that we might save time, 

 perhaps, so as to concentrate on a few questions? — It 

 struck me that with a Committee constituted like this, 

 it would be better for me to tell you in three minutes 

 how I have done my last piece of work, because I always 

 work in the same way. The last piece of work I did Was 

 to draw up the account of the Acanthacese for the flora 

 of the South African Colonies. I had to draw up the 

 account as far as our herbaria would enable me to do so, 

 and I took them in two batches of about 150 species each. 

 I took the first -150 at Kew, and of course I had to write 

 them out provisionally. That is a great nuisance, with 

 only part of the material, to write a provisional account 

 of genera with descriptions of many critical species. If 

 I had had the British Museum at Kew, I should have 

 finished the thing straight off in five weeks, and done it 

 much better than it is now. After having drawn up this 

 provisional list, I went to the British Museum, and 

 worked through their material, and practically I had to 

 re-write the whole. I had to work all day reconstructing 

 many of the species and so on, which took me another 

 fortnight, and then I went to Kew to have another Jook, 

 and finally I got nicely muddled. I have to carry a 

 sufl[icient description backwards and forwards to identify 

 species closely allied, and I cannot do it properly. Mr. 

 S, L. Moore, who is at the British Museum, had made a 

 species and published it. I had a plant which I got 

 a"- Kew, and said it was the same. Mr. Moore went 



3499. 



Mr. C. B. 



to Kew and iooked at it, and thought it was not the 

 same. I said, "What are we to do?" Mr. Moore said, ,,, ., 

 "The specimen cannot be moved, and you must make ' ^- ^-^ 



a minute drawing of it," and that would have taken me 

 a quarter of a day. And even when I have made the 

 drawing and carried it down, the doubt still remains. 

 If we could put the plants side by side, we should know 

 in a minute. Not only would it save us a large per- 

 centage of time, but I should do mj' work so much 

 better if I had the whole series before me at once. This, 

 work is what I have been doing the whole of these nine- 

 teen years. 



303. Are you ever allowed to take away specimens 

 from Kew for the purpose of comparison ? — ^We are not so 

 absolutely tied up as at the British Museum, but that is 

 not what I want. I want in forming a genus to have all 

 the material in one place. 



304. Then it is your opinion that it would be to the ad- 

 vantage of science that the two herbaria should be some- 

 how combined ? — Certainly. 



305. If the change should be made, what would you re- 

 commend in order to bring about what you wish?- — I 

 wish to give evidence now from my own experience. All 

 I want is that the two, up-to-date, should be completely 

 amalgamated and fused. What I should like would be to 

 have all the sheets of specimens arranged in one series ; 

 not to touch the sheets, but to put the small sheets on 

 bigger pieces of paper. The whole thing should be 

 systematically consolidated. It is nothing to me where 

 that is done, whether the consolidated herbarium is at 

 Kew, at the British Museum, or even in Edinburgh. 

 They would be all equally convenient to me. 



306. Do you think that would be equally convenient for 

 others ? — No. As I have said, I am narrowing my evi- 

 dence to my own experience, exactly what I have done 

 myself. 



307. You would have one complete herbarium? — Yes. 

 There is one thing I should say in explanation of Sir 

 George King's views. I want all the existing material, 

 the old Kew herbarium, everything up-to-date, brought 

 together. As regards future material it does not matter. 

 I have no objection to forming any supplemental 

 material, or imperfect herbarium in London. Bat we 

 want particularly all the herbaria up-to-date, liecause 



C 



