MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



23 



them would be if they were left entirely to themselves. 

 Do you think there is .my force in that argument? — I 

 think none. I think the best answer is simply to refer 

 to the works published by the British Museum, and 

 those published by Kew. I think you will find that 

 the enormous amount of work that has been done at 

 Kew has by no means stimulated the other establish- 

 ment to rivalry tliat leads them to produce such work 

 or anything like as much work as is done at Kew. 

 That is a matter that can easily be decided by reference 

 to the work that has been published. 



415. You have, I believe, certain views as to the de- 

 tails of the way in which such a general collection 

 should be arranged. You have written an article, have 

 you not, on the arrangement of museums and herbaria? 

 — I wrote that for the Museums Associaticn. It was a 

 paper read to the Museums Association a year or two 

 ago. I thought it might be useful to bring together 

 some view of what is done in foreign herbaria and various 

 museums, so that it can be compared with what is done 

 in the museums in Britain, pointing out as far as pos- 

 sible the advantages of the methods adopted in different 

 musemns over oiu- own, or of our own museums over the 

 musexims abroad. 



416. That probably has no distinct bearing upon the 

 particular question in hand, namely, the desirability 

 of amalgamating the two herbaria? — No, only on the 

 actual working. Difficulties have been found in work- 

 ing herbaria, which I thought might be done away 

 with, and the facilities for using the herbarium improved. 



417. You are, I suppose, very distinctly of opinion 

 that the collections should be in fire-proof buildings ? — 

 Unquestionably, without any doubt whatever. I think 

 that is a most important thing. 



418. {Lord Avelmry.) I should like to get a rather 

 more distinct idea of what your suggestion would be as 

 regards the collections which you propose should be 

 formed in the British Museum. You spoke of it as a 

 reference collection ; would you mind giving the Com- 

 mittee a rather more distinct idea as to what you con- 

 template ? — It is a matter that does not, I was going 

 to say, concern myself, except in so far as I have taught 

 botany occasionaily, and I have found that students 

 just have a few typical orders, 24 orders as a 

 rule, asked for at a science examination. If a doctor, 

 for instance, goes abroad he is very much puzzled to 

 know what natural orders the plants he meets with in 

 his travels belong to. He has only learned a few. He 

 meets with orders like the Proteacese, and the Epacri- 

 ■dacese, which he has not seen. There ai*e no means in the 

 ordinary way of his getting a glimpse of the types of 

 the orders, so that he might see a sort of family like- 

 ness in the plants he meets with, nor does he know 

 how to examine them properly. It seems to me that in 

 3 reference collection you want exhibited, somewhat in 

 the same way as in that very nice public botanical room 

 at the British Musemn, in a way that a man can get a 

 hird's-eye view of the subject, the types of each Natural 

 Order, preferably by pictures, but if you can put a 

 piece of the same plant by the side of the picture, so 

 much the better. Pictures will, however, give him an 

 idea of what the general look of the Natural Order is. 

 He learns in his studies what the actual characters are 

 by which he can distinguish them. 



419. You do not confine it to the English orders at 

 all? — No, the larger English orders are, of course, much 

 more generally known, and better known, than the 

 foreign ones. 



420. How would that differ from the collection which 

 is at present in the Public Gallery of the Natural His- 

 tory Museum ? — I do not think it would differ, except 

 that if you have a series of the actual plants them- 

 selves, and also types in cabinets, they might be useful to 

 refer to in case the man did not understand the draw- 

 ing. But apart from that I think for teaching purposes 

 the way I have mentioned is the easiest. 



421. Take a large order like the Compcsitfe, would 

 you say there is a type of that order? — A. number of 

 types, for instance, Ambrosia and Xanthium. 



422. Then you would represent the order by a 

 number of types ? — ^Yes. 



423. Would you go as far as the most important 

 genera? — Yes, unquestionably, or any generi that 

 showed marked differences from or connection with other 

 genera. 



424. Then would you have one or two representatives 



Mr. E. M. 

 Holmes, 



F.L.R. 



of each genus? — You would extend it as far as it is 

 useful for practical purposes. 



425. How can one find what would be a practical 



purpose from that point of view. For practical purposes xj"""" 

 you generally want several species of genus when you '^'' "'OO- 



are making any research ? — It would be largely a question 

 of room, I think. 



426. I am endeavouring to ascertain your views as to 

 what should be done? — My idea would be to give the 

 most striking types in each Natural Order, with a refer- 

 ence collection in cupboards of the types there was not 

 room to show. 



427. I understood you to say just now that you would 

 give the most striking types of each genus ? — If it were 

 a large genus, and there were great differences in the 

 genera, but not else. In the reference collection you 

 would give all as far as you could that were fairly repre- 

 sentative types of the family or gencia that a visitor 

 might want to see. 



428. And does not it come to this, that it would be 

 rather difficult to determine where you would stop if 

 you came down to the principal types of each important 

 genus ? — In that you would be guided by the men who 

 teach botany. 



429. How would you understand their types ? Must 

 not you leave that to the Keeper of the Department of 

 Botany? — You have the Royal College of Science close 

 by, where they teach botany, and where they know prac- 

 tically what is wanted. You have your examiners, who 

 know practically what groups they ask about. I think 

 the examination papers are an excellent guide as to what 

 is wanted in one direction, and the teachers of botany in 

 another. 



430. Supposing a person is engaged in a research on 

 fruits, or pollen, or leaves ? — ^That is one of the things 

 I pointed out in the paper that I wrote, that a collec- 

 tion of fruits is very desirable. There is no museum 

 at present where you have a complete collection of 

 fruits. Fruits are constantly coming into commerce, 

 and we do not know what they are. There is a cup- 

 board at Kew, for instance, containing unnamed fruits. 



431. We have a large collection of fruits at the 

 British Museum. Would you propose to transfer them 

 to Kew? — ^Yes, and also to make them a complete col- 

 lection as far as possible. 



432. In that case should we not have to begin by 

 making another collection of fruits ? — There would be 

 duplicates of a good many. One specimen of a fruit, or 

 section of fruit, fairly well mounted, would answer the 

 purposes of teaching, but you would want rather more 

 for those who were studying professionally. 



433. But would not you have a collection of fruits in 

 the Natural History Museum? — I think it would be 

 very useful, if consisting of characteristic types. 



434. To a person engaged in study, not merely for 

 educational purposes, but in making a study with the 

 view to the progress of botany, would the collection 

 you contemplate be one sufficient for his purpose, or do 

 you propose he should go to Kew? — He should go to 

 Kew. 



435. How would you propose that the Natural His- 

 tory Museum should get the specimens under the 

 arrangement you suggest? — ^I suggest that Kew should 

 provide duplicates. 



436. You would practically make the Botanical De- 

 partment of the Natural History Museum an offshoot 

 of Kew? — Yes, for practical purposes. Supposing a 

 man in the City, for instance, finds a fruit sent into 

 commerce, and does not know what it is." I do not mean 

 to say that the rarer fruits and rarer seeds that do not 

 come into commerce need be at the British Museum, 

 but all the ordinary things that come in or are fre- 

 quently met with should be there, so that the majority 

 of people who do not know them might very easily refer 

 to them at the British Museum. 



437. I do not wish txD put anything in your mouth, 

 but from the point of view of organisation I rather 

 gather from the answer you gave just now that you 

 would propose the Natural History Museum should 

 be supplied) from Kew? — ^Yes. 



438. That would be making the botanical collection 

 in the Natural HL<?tory Museum really an offshoot of Kew, 

 would it not? — Practically ; I presume so, at .''ea?*. 

 I am only answering from the pvoint of view of "vrL^i 

 seems to me useful and practical, and when I saj 

 practical, I mean uf practical use to the British public. 



